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Do you believe in the scriptures being Infallable?

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
so you would claim that it would be an error then?
It is a variant introduced into the text by Erasmus.

Your contradicting yourself now, earlier you implied all texts are infallible and have no errors of fact.
Well, Jordan, I would have a lot more respect for your opinions if you would learn something about the English language. "Your" is a possessive pronoun. "You're" is a contraction for "you are." What you meant to say was "You're contradicting yourself."

But, of course, I am not. There is a huge existential gulf between a textual variant and an error of fact. I have been trying to explain that to you but your mind has been so closed to the truth by your KJVO heresy that you reject the truth in favor of your KJVO error. :(

Which one is it?
The dichotomy exists only in the fevered imagining of your own mind.
 
Doc, you need a Greek refresher after butchering this one. ευδοκια is genitive? LOL...not. Add a sigma and it _could_ be, or it could be an accusative plural (only context can tell).


And what does this have to do with my belief that the Byzantine Textform is superior?

I believe δοξα εν υψιστοις θεω και επι γης ειρηνη εν ανθρωποις ευδοκια is without error of fact. If you believe I am wrong please feel free to tell me which of the words above are wrong in the Greek. And tell my why you think they are wrong. Show me the evidence that proves they are wrong.

I believe the angels said δοξα εν υψιστοις θεω και επι γης ειρηνη εν ανθρωποις ευδοκια.

Here, Jordan, let me help you. The Greek words in question are επι γης ειρηνη εν ανθρωποις ευδοκια. Get out your Strongs and look up each word.

επι = on (Strongs 1909)
γης = land or ground, and by implication, the whole world, planet, earth. (Strongs 1093)
ειρηνη = peace, or rest, or prosperity, by implication the peacefulness of having them. (Strongs 151)
εν = in (Strongs 1722)
ανθρωποις = Humans, human-kind, humanity, people (Strongs 444)
ευδοκια = kindness, or good purpose (Strongs 2107)

So, Jordan, a literal reading would be "on earth peace in men of good purpose (or kindness)."

In fact, Jordan, all the English versions say the same thing. You just misunderstood what the KJV meant when it said "peace on earth good will toward men." It does not mean the peace was being given to (toward) the men, but rather it is saying that men of good purpose have the peace and well being of others as their philosophy of life.

Your problem of understanding is that you are unaware (probably because you pastor can't read Greek) that the last word, ευδοκια, is a noun in the genitive (case of belonging to, or what we might call a possessive), singular, feminine and goes with ειρηνη. So it says the "kindness" belongs to the men of "peace."

Jordan, peace loving people are kind people. And where does that peace come from? It comes from God, of course, so these men in question certainly have the grace (unmerited favor) of God resting on them. Colossians 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

Why do you bring up the NA text? We were talking about the Byzantine Textform.

Why do you bring up the NA text? We were talking about the Byzantine Textform.

And?

I believe καὶ ἐάν τις ἀφέλῃ ἀπὸ τῶν λόγων τοῦ βιβλίου τῆς προφητείας ταύτης, ἀφελεῖ ὁ Θεὸς τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς καὶ ἐκ τῆς πόλεως τῆς ἁγίας, τῶν γεγραμμένων ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ is without error of fact. If you disagree could you point out to me where that error is and provide the proof it is wrong.

You have, as yet, not given me an error of fact. But please, keep trying.

You have yet to explain to me what the error is and why you can prove it is an error.

It is true there may be variants in the Greek text but how does that prove an error of fact in the bible?

I am going to stop you right there and warn you not to call my honesty into question again. You will not like the result. You have not, as yet, shown me an error of fact in either the Byzantine or Alexandrian textforms. All you have done is show some variants in the English translations. And even then you failed to provide any evidence that any of them were, in fact, an error, and additionally, you failed to post any proof of your charge of error.

Jordan, let me given you a little grandfatherly advice. You cutting and pasting from a KJVO web site put up by people with no knowledge of Hebrew, Greek, Text-Critical analysis, grammar or syntax does not trump the ability to actually read the bible in the language in which it was inspired and study the manuscript evidence for over 50 years.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
It is part of the Grk. theta abbreviation for God.
Yes. The abbreviation for Θεοσ or Θεου was Θς with a superscript line (called a macron) (¯) over the ς (which I can't seem to figure out how to get it to show up on the screen with the sigma final under it).

As there was a fold or crease in the parchment of Vaticanus it was thought the macron and cross mark in the Theta were just dirt in the crease so they read Ος - he - instead of Θς - God. :)
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Doc, you need a Greek refresher after butchering this one. ευδοκια is genitive? LOL...not. Add a sigma and it _could_ be, or it could be an accusative plural (only context can tell).
Duh! What I need is stronger reading glasses. (I am slowly going blind due to my MS).

You are correct. Nominative, Singular, Feminine.

Thanks for the correction. :)
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes. The abbreviation for Θεοσ or Θεου was Θς with a superscript line (called a macron) (¯) over the ς (which I can't seem to figure out how to get it to show up on the screen with the sigma final under it).

As there was a fold or crease in the parchment of Vaticanus it was thought the macron and cross mark in the Theta were just dirt in the crease so they read Ος - he - instead of Θς - God. :)
Yes, I vaguely remember that point. The rebuttal to Burgon's light through the other side claim was that he was seeing superfluous ink from the reverse page as the light shown through it. Hmm. I didn't understand this one.

Wasn't the mss material parchment and is this material opaque or translucent?


HankD
 
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SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am asking this the third time...

What KJV verses do you find to be in error Jordan?

This reeks of a KJVO witch hunt...
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am asking this the third time...

What KJV verses do you find to be in error Jordan?

This reeks of a KJVO witch hunt...
How about the "Easter-pascha" controversy?

Acts 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

HankD
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
How about the "Easter-pascha" controversy?

Acts 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

HankD
English (along with German) is one of the few languages which distinguishes between "easter" and "passover." The Spanish word for Easter is Pascua; French: Pâques; Portuguese: Páscoa; Dutch: Pasen; Italian: Pasqua. In fact, the only European language that I know of which does make a distinction (other than English, of course) is German which translates Easter as Ostern and Passover as Passah. I suspect the similarity is due to English being a member of the Germanic Cognate Language group.

"Easter" in 1611 had a much broader meaning than it does today. In 1611 the meaning of the word included, according to the Oxford English dictionary, "The Jewish Passover." That meaning has become archaic, but it would be incorrect, in my opinion, to say that "easter" was an error in 1611.

There are many, many other instances in the NT of the same Greek word being translated "passover" in the KJV. But each of those was a reference to the passover for critical reasons whereas the reference to Easter may have been because the intent was to establish the time of the events in questions and a lot more English readers in the early 17th century would know when Easter was but were clueless to when Passover was. :)
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
English (along with German) is one of the few languages which distinguishes between "easter" and "passover." The Spanish word for Easter is Pascua; French: Pâques; Portuguese: Páscoa; Dutch: Pasen; Italian: Pasqua. In fact, the only European language that I know of which does make a distinction (other than English, of course) is German which translates Easter as Ostern and Passover as Passah. I suspect the similarity is due to English being a member of the Germanic Cognate Language group.

"Easter" in 1611 had a much broader meaning than it does today. In 1611 the meaning of the word included, according to the Oxford English dictionary, "The Jewish Passover." That meaning has become archaic, but it would be incorrect, in my opinion, to say that "easter" was an error in 1611.

There are many, many other instances in the NT of the same Greek word being translated "passover" in the KJV. But each of those was a reference to the passover for critical reasons whereas the reference to Easter may have been because the intent was to establish the time of the events in questions and a lot more English readers in the early 17th century would know when Easter was but were clueless to when Passover was. :)
I didn't say it was an error but was "testing the waters". Lo and Behold Dr Tom surfaced!.

Personally I am more likely to agree with those who have said it was a response to a demand of the king to use the word "Easter" at least once in the NT.

Acts 12:4 was the choice.

But, I wouldn't call it an "error" either, just a poor choice.

HankD
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Bro. Tom, I may have misquoted Dr. White when I said he said it was filled with errors. I do know he said it had errors, but maybe not filled.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
He doesn't believe there are any errors in the KJV. Neither do I (no errors of fact, just textual variants). But neither do I believe there are errors of fact in any other English translations (except those deliberately corrupted to conform with the doctrine of cults such as the NWT of the JWs).

There are textual and translational variants but no errors of fact. :)
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Brother Tom, I tweeted Dr. White and he said...

James White @DrOakley1689
I would never use the phrase “filled with errors.” Inadequate, given the riches we possess.

This was his response to my tweet...

"didn't u say the TR is filled with errors in a recent DL? I used to be KJVO but thankfully God rescued me from that hot mess."
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
He doesn't believe there are any errors in the KJV. Neither do I (no errors of fact, just textual variants). But neither do I believe there are errors of fact in any other English translations (except those deliberately corrupted to conform with the doctrine of cults such as the NWT of the JWs).

There are textual and translational variants but no errors of fact. :)
I really appreciate this post, but, imo, what you are saying and what Brother Jordan is saying, are NOT even close. Not even in the same solar system. He is finding 'errors' in other translation, if I am understanding him correctly. That is why I am pressing him for an answer.
 

Jordan Kurecki

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I really appreciate this post, but, imo, what you are saying and what Brother Jordan is saying, are NOT even close. Not even in the same solar system. He is finding 'errors' in other translation, if I am understanding him correctly. That is why I am pressing him for an answer.
I do not believe there any And yes I am KJO
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
I do not believe there any And yes I am KJO
So, Jordan, you admit that God lost track of the word "book" in Revelation 22:19 in 382 AD and didn't find it again until 1525?

Or do you think He lied about preserving His word for the use of all His people in every generation?
 

Baptist Believer

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Or do you think He lied about preserving His word for the use of all His people in every generation?
Probably a dumb question, but I'm trying to recall where God has promised to preserve his word "for the use of all His people in every generation."

I believe it, but can you point me to the scripture(s) that make this explicit promise?
 
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