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Do you believe that there has been millions and millions of years?

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Ivon Denosovich

New Member
I personally don't believe in the concept of time because of Zeno's paradoxes.

If you think about it, matter & energy can neither be created nor destroyed so the world really isn't any "age" per se. All the stuff its comprised of has always been and always will be.
 

Marcia

Active Member
Alcott said:
By this reasoning, answer this queation:

Would this passage be taken as literal, and is there indication in language, style, or culture that it does not apply to, and only to, Abraham's physical descendants?...

I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you (Genesis 17:7).

Now, consider this one (of several) NT passages which redefine the meaning:

And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise (Galatians 3:29).

Are (non-Israelite) Christians the descendants of Abaraham or not? Can OT history meant to be taken literally-- physically-- actually mean something other than the sense in which it was unquestionably understood in former times?

This is off-topic. I'm not getting into this debate, which is another topic entirely!
 

Marcia

Active Member
Ivon Denosovich said:
I personally don't believe in the concept of time because of Zeno's paradoxes.

If you think about it, matter & energy can neither be created nor destroyed so the world really isn't any "age" per se. All the stuff its comprised of has always been and always will be.

You're saying the world is eternal?

First of all, that denies Gen 1 that says God created it.

Secondly, it's impossible. If the world was eternal, there could not be a yesterday or tomorrow.
 

Alcott

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Marcia said:
This is off-topic. I'm not getting into this debate, which is another topic entirely!

The concluding question is definitely not off-topic=>
Can OT history meant to be taken literally-- physically-- actually mean something other than the sense in which it was unquestionably understood in former times?
 

Marcia

Active Member
Alcott said:
The concluding question is definitely not off-topic=>
Can OT history meant to be taken literally-- physically-- actually mean something other than the sense in which it was unquestionably understood in former times?

If it's history, it's literal. I am not denying there is poetry, metaphors, etc. in the OT. I am speaking specifically here of Genesis 1-11, and mainly Gen. 1.
 

gb93433

Active Member
Site Supporter
SBCPreacher said:
And your point is?
The rotational time for each cycle will have changed when the weight distribution changed. When the radius distance of the water from the center of the earth changed then most likely the time of each rotation would have changed.
 

Alive in Christ

New Member
Grasshopper...

"If you believe it to be a fairy tale, I'm not sure why you started the thread. Unless it was just to point out all us fairy tale believers."

The reason I started the thread is because that is how one starts a "topic" for conversation. Thats how this site works. There is no other way to do that. :thumbs:

I am interested in what people on both sides have to say.


:godisgood:
 

Joseph M. Smith

New Member
Well, I have enjoyed reading the responses to my posting on the nature of Genesis 1-11 and the questions raised about the "young earth" idea. I knew it would bring forth a defense of a literal reading, because I've engaged in that debate on other threads. I have no desire to prolong the argument just for the sake of argument, but would ask us all to consider a few points:

[1] The sciences of geology, archaeology, paleontology, and the like, all point to a time frame of immense length for the universe, the earth, living things, and homo sapies, though of course homo sapiens appears much later than these other formative events. Why would we try to force these data to fit our reading of the Bible?

[2] So if the data and the reading of the Bible do not fit, and the data, while certainly not incontrovertible, do overwhelmingly point to an ancient universe, formed over a vast period of time, doesn't that suggest that there may be another way to read the Bible than the one we have become accustomed to? The study of ancient literature and, indeed, the very nature of the text, suggests a mythological framework -- and, again, I am not using "myth" to mean "untrue" or "fiction". Myth is a type of spiritual story designed to make sense of the world from the perspective of prescientific people AND -- this is most important -- to interpret our relationship with the divine. As another post has suggested, there are many parallels between the stories in Genesis 1-11 and other ancient mythologies. But there are also vast differences, in that our Biblical accounts do not dabble in multiple deities cavorting across the landscape! They point to a single Creator God, working with purpose, and to a broken, fallen humanity, in need of restoration to fellowship with God. So these stories, far from being "untrue", are PROFOUNDLY true. They are true for all of us. I am Adam, you are Eve, we all sin.

[3] That the names of Adam and Eve appear in the New Testament should not surprise us, nor does that bother us when we read the Genesis accounts mythologically. First, they are there because the writers of the New Testament had no other framework than a historical reading of Genesis. They had no science that would have led them to read those accounts in any different way. To put it another way, if Paul thought of Adam as a literal single human being, it only means that Paul was a man of his time, just as limited in his knowledge of facts as anyone else would have been then (and, of course, we are still very limited in our knowledge of these things). His first Adam-second Adam concept in I Corinthians may indeed, at one level, depend on seeing Adam as an individual who broke fellowship with God; but at another level, one can read this lyrical passage as a picture of our very personal relationship with the Gospel story -- I sinned and Christ came for me. It's not Adam's fault, it's mine. I chose to sin and cannot get away with blaming it on a distant ancestor.

I do not have a need to win this debate. But I am always trying to frame the Christian faith and a Biblical understanding in a way that is credible for the modern mind. I spent 23 years in campus ministry, working with students who came to the university and encountered science and history with only a naive theology to support them, and some ended up ridiculing Christianity. Subsequent to that, I spent 18 years as the pastor of a church with plenty of people in the medical and other scientific fields, and they found this perspective helpful in their conversations with their secular colleagues. Right now I am interim pastor of a church where it seems nearly everybody is a scientist connected with NIST or NIH or some such, and they are eager to grasp this sort of concept, because they know that a woodenly literal reading of Genesis will not make sense in their world.

My job has been, therefore, and still is, not only to help them reconcile the apparent conflicts, but also, and more importantly, to own the universality of human sin and our personal responsibility for our wrong choices. It's not just, "Ho hum, so I'm human." No, it is that being human means we "want to be as gods". Adam's story is my story, and I need a savior for that reason.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Marcia,

I wasn't saying Adam wasn't real in the contending argument just that he was representative. God could have chosen one man which was representative of others. (maybe the first homo sapien mutation :tongue3: )

As far as the rest I disagree with your analysis. Its writen in the same style of writing and there are similarities and both or all three are narrative.

Genesis account:
2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters....9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

Enuma Elish Account:
When on high the heaven had not been named,
Firm ground below had not been called by name,
When primordial Apsu, their begetter,
And Mummu-Tiamat, she who bore them all,
Their waters mingled as a single body,

Genisis Account:
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
Enuma Elish:
He set up three constellations for each of the twelve months.
After defining the days of the year by means of heavenly figures,
He founded the station of the pole star [Nebiru] to determine their bounds,
That none might err or go astray....The Moon he caused to shine, entrusting the night to him.
He appointed him a creature of the night to signify the days,
And marked off every month, without cease, by means of his crown.
At the month's very start, rising over the land,
You shall have luminous horns to signify six days,
On the seventh day reaching a half-crown.
So shall the fifteen-day period be like one another-two halves for each month.
When the sun overtakes you at the base of heaven,
Diminish your crown and retrogress in light. (20)
Genisis account
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

the LORD God formed the man [e] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being....Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed...The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.


Enuma Elish:
To impart the plan he had conceived in his heart:
"I will take blood and fashion bone.
I will establish a savage, ‘man’ shall be his name.
truly, savage-man I will create.
He shall be charged with the service of the gods
That they might be at ease!

Atra Hasis
They slaughtered Aw-ilu, who had the inspiration, in their assembly.
[225] Nintu mixed clay with his flesh and blood.
That same god and man were thoroughly mixed in the clay.
For the rest of the time they would hear the drum.
From the flesh of the god the spirit remained.
It would make the living know its sign Lest he be allowed to be forgotten, the spirit remained.
After she had mixed the clay

Genesis account:
13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress [c] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. [d] 16 Make a roof for it and finish [e] the ark to within 18 inches [f] of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."

22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

Atra Hasis
'Wall, listen to me!
Reed wall, pay attention to all my words!
Flee the house, build a boat,
forsake possessions, and save life.
[i.c25] The boat which you build
... be equal ...
...
...
Roof her over like the depth,
[i.c30] so that the sun shall not see inside her.
Let her be roofed over fore and aft.
The gear should be very strong,
the pitch should be firm, and so give the boat strength.
I will shower down upon you later
[i.c35] a windfall of birds, a spate of fishes.'"
He opened the water clock and filled it,
he told it of the coming of the seven-day deluge.Pure animals he slaughtered, cattle ...
Fat animals he killed. Sheep ...
he choose and and brought on board.
[ii.35] The birds flying in the heavens,
the cattle and the ... of the cattle god,
the creatures of the steppe,
... he brought on board
...
[ii.40] he invited his people
... to a feast
... his family was brought on board.
 

Me4Him

New Member
Judging from what I find in the Bible/prophecy,

we should be more concerned with the "end days" than the "Creation days",

We're very close to stepping "out of time", into "no time",...."Eternity". :thumbs:
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Me4Him said:
Judging from what I find in the Bible/prophecy,

we should be more concerned with the "end days" than the "Creation days",

We're very close to stepping "out of time", into "no time",...."Eternity". :thumbs:
While this is very true the entire word of God gives us all insight to every aspect of every subject.
MB
 

Steven2006

New Member
Steven2006 said:
I have no problem embracing a literal six day 24hr days. It stands to reason that when God created everything it would appear older anyway. Did Adam appear to be a man of say thirty, or just days old? I would assume if one would have been there to cut down a tree it would have been created complete and had rings in them even if they were only days old. I would assume everything would have appeared perfectly as the age God intended them to appear. God didn't just only make seeds and let everything grow in it's own time he created them with an appropriate age, just like Adam.

That said I have always left one door open that the earth could be older. Not man, nor animal mind you but the earth, and this is the verse that gives me that pause.

Gen 1:14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;

It is clear that on the fourth day God gave us the signs in order to keep our calendars, days and years. So it is crystal clear that there have been 24hr days from that point on. However it is not as clear before that. We know that time to God is not the same as time to us, so how do we really know how long those first few days were in our time when God hadn't yet created our way of keeping them?

Not one reply hmm, either...
Everyone agrees with me
Nobody agrees with me
Nobody read my post
Everyone read my post, but didn't care :laugh:
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Steven2006 said:
Not one reply hmm, either...
Everyone agrees with me
Nobody agrees with me
Nobody read my post
Everyone read my post, but didn't care :laugh:

No one cared about my response to Marcia either. Comparing comprable literature to the bible. So we're in the same boat. ;)
 

Marcia

Active Member
Thinkingstuff said:
Marcia,

I wasn't saying Adam wasn't real in the contending argument just that he was representative. God could have chosen one man which was representative of others. (maybe the first homo sapien mutation :tongue3: )

This would contradict the way Adam is presented in scripture as a specific individual. I posted some scriptures to show this. So you don't believe that the story of Adam and Eve happened in a literal sense?
As far as the rest I disagree with your analysis. Its writen in the same style of writing and there are similarities and both or all three are narrative.

Thanks for posting these mythical accounts from pagan religions. I've read them before. I think they make my point. They are written quite differently and have mythical characters contrary to the biblical narrative. Of course, these are short samples and it may be harder to see the differences but I still see them.

Also, btw, I believe that all men had the truth of creation in some way and it's reflected in the pagan myths. But the actual factual account is Genesis.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Marcia said:
This would contradict the way Adam is presented in scripture as a specific individual. I posted some scriptures to show this. So you don't believe that the story of Adam and Eve happened in a literal sense?


Thanks for posting these mythical accounts from pagan religions. I've read them before. I think they make my point. They are written quite differently and have mythical characters contrary to the biblical narrative. Of course, these are short samples and it may be harder to see the differences but I still see them.

Also, btw, I believe that all men had the truth of creation in some way and it's reflected in the pagan myths. But the actual factual account is Genesis.

They make the point that creation myths are written in the same style. narrative. And I see the similarities with the Genesis accounts like man being made from the earth. God breathed life into man and the other myths hold that man has divine blood in them and take after in a fashion deity. That the stars were placed to show seasons. That there was a flood and man and animals were saved by a boat. I could go on. But essentially the literary style is the same. Its the details that are different. Though I will admit your last statment that its possible that they all these myths are reflective of a truth and it could be that Genesis is accurate and these are pagan attempts to pass them on. However, so that you're not too smug in your confidence I could also say that the same cultures wrote the same way because they were the same peoples and the bible is a product of that same people group trying to explain their God as opposed to the summerian gods. In which case Genesis would then be valuable in what the writer is trying to say about God rather than participate in emperical data transfer of the creation event.
 

Marcia

Active Member
Joseph M. Smith said:
...
[1] The sciences of geology, archaeology, paleontology, and the like, all point to a time frame of immense length for the universe, the earth, living things, and homo sapies, though of course homo sapiens appears much later than these other formative events. Why would we try to force these data to fit our reading of the Bible?

[2] So if the data and the reading of the Bible do not fit, and the data, while certainly not incontrovertible, do overwhelmingly point to an ancient universe, formed over a vast period of time, doesn't that suggest that there may be another way to read the Bible than the one we have become accustomed to? The study of ancient literature and, indeed, the very nature of the text, suggests a mythological framework -- and, again, I am not using "myth" to mean "untrue" or "fiction". Myth is a type of spiritual story designed to make sense of the world from the perspective of prescientific people AND -- this is most important -- to interpret our relationship with the divine. As another post has suggested, there are many parallels between the stories in Genesis 1-11 and other ancient mythologies. But there are also vast differences, in that our Biblical accounts do not dabble in multiple deities cavorting across the landscape! They point to a single Creator God, working with purpose, and to a broken, fallen humanity, in need of restoration to fellowship with God. So these stories, far from being "untrue", are PROFOUNDLY true. They are true for all of us. I am Adam, you are Eve, we all sin.

[3] That the names of Adam and Eve appear in the New Testament should not surprise us, nor does that bother us when we read the Genesis accounts mythologically. First, they are there because the writers of the New Testament had no other framework than a historical reading of Genesis. They had no science that would have led them to read those accounts in any different way. To put it another way, if Paul thought of Adam as a literal single human being, it only means that Paul was a man of his time, just as limited in his knowledge of facts as anyone else would have been then (and, of course, we are still very limited in our knowledge of these things). His first Adam-second Adam concept in I Corinthians may indeed, at one level, depend on seeing Adam as an individual who broke fellowship with God; but at another level, one can read this lyrical passage as a picture of our very personal relationship with the Gospel story -- I sinned and Christ came for me. It's not Adam's fault, it's mine. I chose to sin and cannot get away with blaming it on a distant ancestor.

I do not have a need to win this debate. But I am always trying to frame the Christian faith and a Biblical understanding in a way that is credible for the modern mind. I spent 23 years in campus ministry, working with students who came to the university and encountered science and history with only a naive theology to support them, and some ended up ridiculing Christianity. Subsequent to that, I spent 18 years as the pastor of a church with plenty of people in the medical and other scientific fields, and they found this perspective helpful in their conversations with their secular colleagues. Right now I am interim pastor of a church where it seems nearly everybody is a scientist connected with NIST or NIH or some such, and they are eager to grasp this sort of concept, because they know that a woodenly literal reading of Genesis will not make sense in their world.

You sound more sure of science's interpretation of how things came to be and are reading the bible through that filter. I would prefer to read creation through the filter of the Bible and not man's interpretation. Scientists are always changing their tune. Many things I was taught in science in high school are no longer valid, for example.

Even agnostic scientists disagree on Darwin and evolution.

I know some very smart educated people that hold to the literal 6 day creation, including my seminary prof who teaches Hebrew, Greek, OT, and Hermeneutics, and has written a book on Hermeneutics.

If we dismiss Gen 1-11 as literal, what else can we dismiss in the Bible that is presented as narrative?

Maybe Jesus did not really turn water into wine? Maybe that's a metaphor?
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Marcia said:
You sound more sure of science's interpretation of how things came to be and are reading the bible through that filter. I would prefer to read creation through the filter of the Bible and not man's interpretation. Scientists are always changing their tune. Many things I was taught in science in high school are no longer valid, for example.

Even agnostic scientists disagree on Darwin and evolution.

I know some very smart educated people that hold to the literal 6 day creation, including my seminary prof who teaches Hebrew, Greek, OT, and Hermeneutics, and has written a book on Hermeneutics.

If we dismiss Gen 1-11 as literal, what else can we dismiss in the Bible that is presented as narrative?

Maybe Jesus did not really turn water into wine? Maybe that's a metaphor?

maybe Jesus put nile allgi in the water to make it look like wine and people so use to bad wine thought it was the good stuff? Sorry, had to be mischeivious here. Its a referrence to scientific explanation of how the nile turned to blood during the exodus.
 

Marcia

Active Member
Thinkingstuff said:
maybe Jesus put nile allgi in the water to make it look like wine and people so use to bad wine thought it was the good stuff? Sorry, had to be mischeivious here. Its a referrence to scientific explanation of how the nile turned to blood during the exodus.

Oh, yeah, I know about the higher critics and their scientific explanations for the Bible's miracles! Where is the gag icon when you need one?

Except that God says it was blood:
Ex. 7. 19Then the LORD said to Moses, "Say to Aaron, 'Take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt, over their rivers, over their streams, and over their pools, and over all their reservoirs of water, that they may become blood; and there will be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood and in vessels of stone.'"

20So Moses and Aaron did even as the LORD had commanded. And he lifted up the staff and struck the water that was in the Nile, in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants, and all the water that was in the Nile was turned to blood. 21The fish that were in the Nile died, and the Nile became foul, so that the Egyptians could not drink water from the Nile. And the blood was through all the land of Egypt.

Now the next verses tell us that the magicians did the same with their magic arts. Did they do a trick or did Satan help them? That is an in-house dispute.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
I believe in a relatively short life of the universe.
I believe in a literal Adam and Eve created by God on the 6th day.
I believe in a literal temptation of Eve by a literal Satan and a deliberate disobedience of Adam.
I believe that Adam and Eve tried to cover, make an atonement for their sin, themselves with leaves.
I believe that because of their sin Adam and Eve tried to hide from God.
I believe that God sought out Adam and Eve and made the initial blood atonement, the slaying of an innocent animal, for their sin.
I believe that in Genesis 3:15 God promised the coming of the Redeemer Jesus Christ.
 
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