Do you believe the once saved can again be lost?

[atpollard]

I think that God finishes what God starts:

Philippians 1:6 [ESV] And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Philippians 2:12-13 [ESV] Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

 

[Salty]

I started a poll on this subject::

 

[rockytopva]

Remembering the WW2 generation... Who were steadfast in their salvation. I know very few who are like this these days.I would warn along with the Apostle Peter.

15 Account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. - 2 Peter 3

 

[37818]

So, your agreement is required to accept salvation, but then you are forcefully kept even if you later change your mind. Not logical. Not consistent with God's character or the free will that He gives all beings, even angels and Satan.

We are not in agreement. How we disagree is not even clear as to how.

 

[Charlie24]

We are not in agreement. How we disagree is not even clear as to how.

In 2 Peter 3:14-18, Peter discusses to the Churches that some will go to their own destruction that wrestle with the words of Paul, seeing they can be hard to understand.

Peter tells them "You therefore, beloved, seeing you know these things before, beware lest you also, being led away with error of the wicked. fall from your own steadfastness.

What do you suppose "falling from your own steadfastness" means in this context?

 

[canadyjd]

I believe Hebrews 6. It clearly affirms that salvation can be rejected by those who once accepted it. And if they continue by a consciuos decision of their will to reject that salvation, they will not be renewed to repentance.
What I am talking about in regard to Satan is that he had a choice, as do all created sentient beings including the angels.

Well, you are glossing over the very clear teaching of Hebrews 6.

It does not say, “If they continue by conscious decision….. they will not be renewed to repentance”.

It says if they fall away, it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them to repentance because they have to crucify Christ again.

This is a very strong definitive statement on this subject.

Please do not change scripture to fit your beliefs.

Change your beliefs to conform with scripture

Peace to you

 

[easternstar]

Well, you are glossing over the very clear teaching of Hebrews 6.

It does not say, “If they continue by conscious decision….. they will not be renewed to repentance”.

It says if they fall away, it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them to repentance because they have to crucify Christ again.

This is a very strong definitive statement on this subject.

Please do not change scripture to fit your beliefs.

Change your beliefs to conform with scripture

Peace to you

And please do not change scripture to fit your beliefs. Hebrews 6 clearly states that it is possible for the saved to fall away, just like it was possible for Satan, a perfect being, to fall away, because he had free will, just like the angels, and us.
What is at stake here is the nature of God -- is he a fatalist determinist god like Allah, or does His very nature embody free will, which he bestows on every sentient being. I affirm the latter, and so does scrioture.

 

[Silverhair]

Will you answer my question directly or not?

Di you believe what Hebrews 6 says…

According to Hebrews 6, if a persons falls away it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them to repentance because they would have to crucify Christ again.

Just be consistent. If you want to use Hebrews 6 to say you can lose your salvation then you must acknowledge such a person could never get it back.

Peace to you

What did you not understand from my post @canadyjd?

What does Hebrews 6:6 say? " and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance,"

If that is not clear enough for you then I am not sure what would be.

 

[37818]

In 2 Peter 3:14-18, Peter discusses to the Churches that some will go to their own destruction that wrestle with the words of Paul, seeing they can be hard to understand.

Peter tells them "You therefore, beloved, seeing you know these things before, beware lest you also, being led away with error of the wicked. fall from your own steadfastness.

What do you suppose "falling from your own steadfastness" means in this context?

I have not studied this passage. It is a fair question. To cause sin contrary to the faith.

 

[Charlie24]

I have not studied this passage. It is a fair question. To cause sin contrary to the faith.

You can't fall from something you were not a part of.

The same in Galatians 4 when Paul said, "you have fallen from grace."

 

[Silverhair]

Matt. 7:16-17. "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." See also Matt. 12:33-35; Luke 6:43-45.
Christians must bear fruit. 'For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them' (Eph. 2:10). If we are born of the Spirit of God we will produce the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (Gal. 5:22-23). If we are still born of the flesh, we will produce the fruit described in vs. 19-21. If the fruit of the Spirit we produce is good but insufficient, we will undergo the pruning described in John 15:2, which is nothing else than the chastening of Heb. 12:5-11.
Therefore, a 'branch in Me that does not bear fruit' must mean nothing more than a professing believer, joined to a church of Christ, but not joined to Him by the New Birth. The idea that someone can be born again, made a new creation one moment, and then be 'de-created' the next, and then maybe born again again (!) sometime later, is a nonsense.

@Martin Marprelate where do you get the silly idea "...that someone can be born again, made a new creation one moment, and then be 'de-created' the next, and then maybe born again again (!) sometime later,..."? Hebrews 6:6 shows the error of the type of thinking.

Did I say one could be saved, lost, then saved again? NO I did not. And that is not what we see in John 15:2. Christ said those that are in Him that do not produce fruit He takes away. They are no longer in Him. He does not mean that He is chastening them as you suggest. Those that sin will be chastened so as to bring them back into a right relationship with God.

Note what John 15:6 says about those that no longer abide in Christ, they are thrown away and cast into the fire. If they had been abiding in Christ that would mean they were saved. Or do you think the unsaved abide in Christ?

 

[shodan]

One of the men at our Bible study once remarked, "the church has not solved that in 2000 years, we are not going to resolve it this morning"

A PROBLEM with this discussion is always ignoring that their are THREE positions , the Two Classical positions and the MODERN position that flies the OSAS banner and which distorts the historic position of the perseverance of the saints...This popular version will tell anyone who has run down and aisle or repeated the sinner's prayer that they are OSAS.....Chapter Four, Sin and Silence. Love…When Basics Become Heresies “…an excellent piece…one that many Christians need to hear”–R.C. Sproul,

 

[canadyjd]

And please do not change scripture to fit your beliefs. Hebrews 6 clearly states that it is possible for the saved to fall away, just like it was possible for Satan, a perfect being, to fall away, because he had free will, just like the angels, and us.
What is at stake here is the nature of God -- is he a fatalist determinist god like Allah, or does His very nature embody free will, which he bestows on every sentient being. I affirm the latter, and so does scrioture.

And so, once again, you fail to acknowledge that Hebrews 6 states very clearly if a person could lose salvation it is impossible to renew them again to repentance because they would have have to crucified Christ again.

Just acknowledge it.

And please provide the scripture to support your assertion that Satan was a “perfect being”.

Please show from scripture that God’s very nature embodies “free will”.

“Free will” is a lie. The Apostle Paul spends much of Romans explaining our human will is enslaved to sin. How can our will be “free” if it is enslaved to sin?

The thing at stake here is the Truth of scripture. Will people believe what it says or will they force their secular, humanistic understanding of what is “fair” upon it.

You appear to affirm the latter

Peace to you

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@Martin Marprelate where do you get the silly idea "...that someone can be born again, made a new creation one moment, and then be 'de-created' the next, and then maybe born again again (!) sometime later,..."? Hebrews 6:6 shows the error of the type of thinking.

Well actually, I got it from you. Clearly you believe that someone can be born again, made a new creation one moment, and then 'de-created' the next. I'm somewhat relieved that you don't think that the process can go on indefinitely, but do you really think that the New Birth is reversible?
1 Peter 1:3-5. 'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again into a living hope through the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible [or 'imperishable' NKJV margin] and undefiled and that does not pass away, reserved in heaven for you who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.' How is it abundant mercy if God can take away the new birth? How is the inheritance imperishable and how does it not pass away if it can disappear? In what sense will that inheritance not pass away? How is it reserved in heaven for us, with the Holy Spirit our seal and guarantee (Eph. 1:13-14) if the Holy Spirit does not seal us and guarantee it for us.
Your problem is that you don't believe that God loves anyone enough to save them.

Did I say one could be saved, lost, then saved again? NO I did not.

As I say, I'm partially relieved to hear it

And that is not what we see in John 15:2. Christ said those that are in Him that do not produce fruit He takes away. They are no longer in Him. He does not mean that He is chastening them as you suggest. Those that sin will be chastened so as to bring them back into a right relationship with God.

Note what John 15:6 says about those that no longer abide in Christ, they are thrown away and cast into the fire. If they had been abiding in Christ that would mean they were saved. Or do you think the unsaved abide in Christ?

So the love of God is "one strike and you're out," is it? And once out, you never get back in again? No, no! God will save His people with an everlasting salvation. Those who fall away permanently show that they were never His to begin with. "I never knew you!" (Matt. 7:23).
I agree with Ada Habershon. If my salvation depended upon me, I would have fallen away years ago.

 

[37818]

And so, once again, you fail to acknowledge that Hebrews 6 states very clearly if a person could lose salvation it is impossible to renew them again to repentance because they would have have to crucified Christ again.

Hebrews 6:4-6 of an impossiblity.

 

[JesusFan]

So, your agreement is required to accept salvation, but then you are forcefully kept even if you later change your mind. Not logical. Not consistent with God's character or the free will that He gives all beings, even angels and Satan.

We have the ne nature which desires God, and the sealing of and by the Holy Spirit

 

[atpollard]

Hebrews 6:4-8 [NLT]
4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened--those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come -- 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.
7 When the ground soaks up the falling rain and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has God's blessing. 8 But if a field bears thorns and thistles, it is useless. The farmer will soon condemn that field and burn it.

Verses 7-8 are an illustration of the spiritual truth of Verses 4-6 using an everyday analogy that people can understand. If a field bears WEEDS (to burn), were those weeds ever once a GOOD CROP?

As a tare was never once a wheat ... as a GOOD TREE cannot bear bad fruit ... so, too, those that turn away from the KNOWLEDGE of God cannot find another "savior" (they are a field of weeds fit for only one end).

 

[37818]

Please show from scripture that God’s very nature embodies “free will”.

“Free will” is a lie. The Apostle Paul spends much of Romans explaining our human will is enslaved to sin. How can our will be “free” if it is enslaved to sin?

ASV, Philemon 1:14, but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.

Versus.
Romans 6:16, Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

A child of God cannot engage in prolonged sin and not be chastised by God.

[Heb 12:7 KJV] 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
[Heb 12:8 KJV] 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

[easternstar]

And so, once again, you fail to acknowledge that Hebrews 6 states very clearly if a person could lose salvation it is impossible to renew them again to repentance because they would have have to crucified Christ again.

Just acknowledge it.

And please provide the scripture to support your assertion that Satan was a “perfect being”.

Please show from scripture that God’s very nature embodies “free will”.

“Free will” is a lie. The Apostle Paul spends much of Romans explaining our human will is enslaved to sin. How can our will be “free” if it is enslaved to sin?

The thing at stake here is the Truth of scripture. Will people believe what it says or will they force their secular, humanistic understanding of what is “fair” upon it.

You appear to affirm the latter

Peace to you

And so, once again, you fail to acknowledge that Hebrews 6 states very clearly that it is possible for a person to fall away. Since that is stated first, deal with it first before you try to explain what comes after. Don't just try to twist or ignore that it is possible for a person to fall away because that doesn't fit your determinist theology. Just acknowledge it.
Free will is the truth. If it is not, salvation is an illusion -- salvation that cannot be accepted or rejected is no salvation at all, and humans are just puppets and robots with god as a puppetmaster. This bears no relation to the God of the Bible. Calvinist determinist fatalism is a lie from the pit of hell. The Old Testament says 'choose life', but you deny that humans can choose, thus you deny scripture. Your position is an affront to the nature of God, Who gives every sentient being the freedom and right to choose. Love without choice is not love but compulsion. If you could force your wife to love you, would you be sure that she actually did?? If you could do such, you might end up with a knife in your back rather than a kiss on the cheek.
I am neither secular nor humanist, nor a deterministic Calvinist whose god has much more in come with Allah than the God of the Bible.

About Satan: Did he have a choice to rebel, or was he compelled to? Was Satan created a sinner, or did he choose to sin and rebel?