Do you have to believe that Jesus is the 2nd Person to be saved?

[Stanedglass]

In another topic DHK and myself have engaged in a debate about the question that "One must believe that Jesus is the 2nd person in the Godhead in order to be saved".

DHK's position is "Yes you have to believe that Jesus is the 2nd person in order to be saved". If you agree with him and wish to give me scripture that says "you have to believe that Jesus is the 2nd person to be saved" I welcome it.

My position is the bible does not state this at all but rather we must only believe that Jesus is the One True God (John 8:24). If you agree with me and have additional scripture please feel free to post as well!

This is not a thread to debate the Trinity but rather to show scripture that one must believe that Jesus is the 2nd person in order to be saved!

Again I say, this is not a thread debating the Trinity!

 

[Johnv]

There are a lot of people who, in their despair, didn't have a clue as to the concept of the Trinity, but in their despair, gave their lives to Christ. Over time, they would learn to understand the nature of the Trinity as they grew in God's Word.

Based on that, I woudl have to say, no, it is not a prerequisite for salvation, but it is a requisite for right doctrine.

 

[DHK]

My position is the bible does not state this at all but rather we must only believe that Jesus is the One True God (John 8:24). If you agree with me and have additional scripture please feel free to post as well!

By default your position is and consistently has been that a person can have a different view of Christ such as the J.W.'s and Mormons and still be saved.
That is heresy.

 

[billwald]

Thousand and something years ago the Church adopted the Athanasian Creed to explain what we mean by the Trinity. Is one required to understand the the Athanasian Creed in order to be saved? I think not! One is not saved by understanding a theological construct. God can save anyone "in" Christ Jesus (whatever "in" means <G>).

 

[annsni]

If one doesn't believe that Jesus Christ is who He says He is, then he is not saved.

Jesus himself professed to be God. By denying Jesus' deity, then one is not saved.

Yes, you must believe that Jesus is who He said He is to be saved.

 

[Stanedglass]

Ok, I'm bring the conversation from another thread to this thread. If anyone wants to catch up on the discussion from there the thread topic is "Can the CoC be considered Christian I believe. I think it's around the 11th page that I got into the discussion.

When Christ says that He is the Alpha and Omega you have no problem believing Him.

But when twice in Scripture he says that he is the second person of the trinity you have a problem, why is that?
Do you also have a problem with other words that are not in the scripture: theology--study of God
Christology--study of Christ.
Because a word isn't in the Bible, do you deny its doctrine?

Again:
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

If Christ is not the Christ of the Bible then He is not Christ at all. It is that simple.

I have a problem with your translation of what YOU are saying Christ said. He did not say he was 2nd! John did not say he was 2nd. He said there are three that bare witness in Heaven, the Father, word, and Spirit and these three are one. How you get John saying he's 2nd puzzles me!

Again, the only thing I find Jesus saying is that John 8:24 Unless you believe that I AM you shall sureley die in your sins. Did he say "The 2nd I AM? No!

Furthermore in John 10:30-33 Jesus said I and [my] Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus said I and My Father are one! If I use the same logic that you are using with Mat 28:19 and 1 John 5:7 Then Jesus is 1st here b/c he put himself first! If it's order he's trying to convince us of he would have said "My Father and I are one"

Why did they pick up stones to kill him? B/c he was a Man making him self to be God! The Fact was he was not a man making himself God but God who made himself man. This again compliments John 8:24!

The only thing we are required to believe is that Jesus is the One True God!

 

[steaver]

The only thing we are required to believe is that Jesus is the One True God!

Isn't this the same word play you are arguing against?

Where does it say in the scriptures that one must believe Jesus is the One True God?

I have had many ignorant Christians argue with me that Jesus is not God but the Son of God. Does this mean they are not really Christians?

:jesus:

 

[Stanedglass]

Isn't this the same word play you are arguing against?

Where does it say in the scriptures that one must believe Jesus is the One True God?
QUOTE]

John 8:24! If you wish, I will rephrase! We must beleive that He is the I AM or we will die in our sins! Which is the One True God! And that is not my opinion it's bible.

John 1:1, John 8:24, Math 1:23, Isa 9:6, Col 2:9,Heb 1:2-3, John 8:58, John 14 the entire Chapter, John 20:28, 1 Tim 3:16, Heb 1:2-3, Need I go on?

You were not disputing that Jesus is God right?

I have had many ignorant Christians argue with me that Jesus is not God but the Son of God. Does this mean they are not really Christians?

There is plenty of scripture that states he is God! (Look up LOL) but to answer your question, I don't know! You tell me! I would say they need a little help! LOL

 

[Johnv]

If one doesn't believe that Jesus Christ is who He says He is, then he is not saved.

But if someone commits his/her life to Christ before having an understanding of Jesus' trinitarian nature, or of scripture, or of a lot of spiritual disciplines that most of us are aware of, that person is saved.

The reason I say this is because a lot of people come to the Lord before they know much about him. It's only after coming to the Lord that they start learning about the Word. Those people are not unsaved.

 

[Stanedglass]

But if someone commits his/her life to Christ before having an understanding of Jesus' trinitarian nature, or of scripture, or of a lot of spiritual disciplines that most of us are aware of, that person is saved.

The reason I say this is because a lot of people come to the Lord before they know much about him. It's only after coming to the Lord that they start learning about the Word. Those people are not unsaved.

Don't forget to vote! LOL....Nevermind...you already have....I should work for Acorn...BAAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

 

[annsni]

But if someone commits his/her life to Christ before having an understanding of Jesus' trinitarian nature, or of scripture, or of a lot of spiritual disciplines that most of us are aware of, that person is saved.

The reason I say this is because a lot of people come to the Lord before they know much about him. It's only after coming to the Lord that they start learning about the Word. Those people are not unsaved.

How can they come to the Lord unless they know Him?

 

[Stanedglass]

How can they come to the Lord unless they know Him?

Thats kind of like asking "How can you drive a car unless you know how it runs?"

Let me step back a verse on one of the verses I was quoteing frequently on the other Thread. On the Day of Pentecost Peter preached Jesus unto them. They were pricked when Peter said " Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36)

What happened to them after they were convicted that Jesus was Lord? Peter told them to Repent and be baptized...(Acts 2:38) Then they were told to "save yourselves from this untoward Generation (Acts 40). And then we find that they which gladley received the word (not believed he was 2nd but believe he was Lord and Christ) were baptized and the same day there was added 3000 souls.

Maybe you do have to know him! But only that he is Lord and Christ.

 

[DHK]

Thats kind of like asking "How can you drive a car unless you know how it runs?"

No, more properly said it is: How can you drive a car unless first you know what a car is?
You can call a car a donkey, but a donkey isn't a car, and won't operate like one though it is a form of transportation.
Many false religions are like donkeys. They are stubbornly giving out false doctrine and going the opposite direction of the truth.
If the stable boy has never seen or heard of a car how can he drive one. He can't.
If he has never heard of Christ how can he believe on him?
He may call his god Christ, but that doesn't make it so.
A J.W. may believe on "the name of Christ," but that doesn't make him saved, because his Christ is not the second person of the trinity; is not deity, is not the God of the Bible.

 

[Stanedglass]

No, more properly said it is: How can you drive a car unless first you know what a car is?
You can call a car a donkey, but a donkey isn't a car, and won't operate like one though it is a form of transportation.
Many false religions are like donkeys. They are stubbornly giving out false doctrine and going the opposite direction of the truth.
If the stable boy has never seen or heard of a car how can he drive one. He can't.
If he has never heard of Christ how can he believe on him?
He may call his god Christ, but that doesn't make it so.
A J.W. may believe on "the name of Christ," but that doesn't make him saved, because his Christ is not the second person of the trinity; is not deity, is not the God of the Bible.

A truck is not a car, but if I know what a truck is I'm pretty sure I can drive a car!

JW's don't even believe that Jesus is God!

Is the I AM 2nd or 1st?

 

[DHK]

A truck is not a car, but if I know what a truck is I'm pretty sure I can drive a car!

JW's don't even believe that Jesus is God!

Then which Christ do they believe?
Which Christ do the Mormons believe?
If Christ is not the second person of the trinity, which Christ do you believe?
How would one know? Maybe he is the Sun Myung Moon Christ or the J.W. Christ. Unless Christ is defined by the Bible how is one to know which Christ you believe in?

 

[donnA]

If one doesn't believe that Jesus Christ is who He says He is, then he is not saved.

Jesus himself professed to be God. By denying Jesus' deity, then one is not saved.

Yes, you must believe that Jesus is who He said He is to be saved.

a person can not make up a Jesus, believe in him and be saved, it's the biblical Jesus or no Jesus at all.

 

[Stanedglass]

Then which Christ do they believe?
Which Christ do the Mormons believe?
If Christ is not the second person of the trinity, which Christ do you believe?
How would one know? Maybe he is the Sun Myung Moon Christ or the J.W. Christ. Unless Christ is defined by the Bible how is one to know which Christ you believe in?

I believe in the one who said he was the I AM (John 8:24) and the one who said he was alpha and omega, beginning and end, that which was, and is and is to come, The Lord God all mighty!

Evidently I don't believe in the one that is 2nd b/c you cannot show me where he said he was 2nd. Maybe in your opinion that makes me a heratic but please dont kick me off the board b/c I dont believe in your opinion.

I've given ample proof of the Jesus who I believe in and I think it's the same one that most everyone on this board knows!

I am not denying the Trinty here! I'm just denying the fact that one must believe that Jesus is 2nd to be saved!

Please answer my question now.

How many I AM's are there? No need to ask a question to answer this one! There's either one or two! Please dont feel trapped! There's only one answer! And if you are trapped by answering it correctly then maybe you should change your position! And if you feel trapped by answering this wrong then maybe you should change your position! The only reason I can figure that you would not answer this with 1 or 2 is b/c by answering one way or the other you would feel trapped!

 

[Darron Steele]

I believe in the one who said he was the I AM (John 8:24) and the one who said he was alpha and omega, beginning and end, that which was, and is and is to come, The Lord God all mighty!

Evidently I don't believe in the one that is 2nd b/c you cannot show me where he said he was 2nd. Maybe in your opinion that makes me a heratic but please dont kick me off the board b/c I dont believe in your opinion.

I've given ample proof of the Jesus who I believe in and I think it's the same one that most everyone on this board knows!

I am not denying the Trinty here! I'm just denying the fact that one must believe that Jesus is 2nd to be saved!...

Can I suggest something: why care what anyone thinks about whether or not you are a Christian?

My thoughts:
Have you looked at what Scripture unambiguously teaches that you should believe about Jesus Christ to be a Christian?

Do you believe all of it?

Do you make it your life pattern to follow Jesus Christ's teachings to the best of your understanding and ability?

If yes, yes, yes, then you should not need any of us to tell you if you are a Christian. We do not make that decision. Your faith has to pass muster with Jesus Christ, not any of us.

If you are certain, from Scripture, that it will, I recommend you think `Well, these people can be wrong, and that is their problem.'

 

[Stanedglass]

Can I suggest something: why care what anyone thinks about whether or not you are a Christian?

My thoughts:
Have you looked at what Scripture unambiguously teaches that you should believe about Jesus Christ to be a Christian?

Do you believe all of it?

Do you make it your life pattern to follow Jesus Christ's teachings to the best of your understanding and ability?

If yes, yes, yes, then you should not need any of us to tell you if you are a Christian. We do not make that decision. Your faith has to pass muster with Jesus Christ, not any of us.

If you are certain, from Scripture, that it will, I recommend you think `Well, these people can be wrong, and that is their problem.'

Here's the thing Darron! (And this is not a jab at DHK) but on many occasions he calls out those who that don't hold fast to what he believes. The reason for the question and the persistancy is to seperate Bible and Opinion.

Many times DHK has called many people Heretics! It's very offending! But the biggest problem with that is he's a moderator! He does hold a little higher office than most people. If he chooses, b/c someone does not believe that Jesus is the 2nd person to be saved, he will call them a heratic and show the rest of the administrators someone is not a fundamental Chrisitian and they get booted. I really like this board and the people here and really don't want to leave!

But If I can prove scripturally that what he's saying is not Bible I won't look so much like a heretic!

Furthermore, (in my opinion) the reason why he will not answer the question is b/c if he has to say I'm saved, One day when another topic arises and my beliefs dont line with his, Heretics can't be saved! See what I mean.

DHK and I both worship the same God! Below is a responce from DHK when I asked him what I must do to be saved.

you must put your faith in the Christ of the Bible, not another Christ![/B]


1. Recognize that you are a sinner, lost, and condemned to Hell. If you got what you deserved you would spend an eternity in Hell. You deserve nothing but the eternal wrath of God upon your life. The reason? You, (as we all) have sinned. You and I are sinners. God is holy. Nothing unholy can enter into heaven. That excludes us.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
--We have sinned.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--The consequence of our sin is eternal death or separation from God for all eternity. A wage is something I deserve. We deserve to be separated from God for all eternity because of our sin.

However:
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth (demonstrated) his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

--Christ died for our sins. He took the penalty of our sins upon himself. He could do that for two reasons: a) He was God, and b) He was sinless.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

--Christ was the Just One who died for us, the unjust.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

--Propitiation means satisfaction in a legal sense. Christ satisfied the legal demands of God the Father in making payment for our sins. He paid the penalty for the sins that we could not pay. He made an atonement for us.
--He died, buried, and rose again. His resurrection was the great demonstration of his deity, and his victory over death and sin and Satan.

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

--The instruction in the verse is self-explanatory.
But the Lord Jesus is just who he says he is: The Lord Jesus Christ as defined by the Word of God and nothing less than that. He is the second person of the trinity, not Sun Myung Moon or any thing less than the triune Godhead. For in Christ all the fullness of the Godhead dwells.

Everything with -- beside it is what he added. It's what he interprates the bible to be saying in each of the verses. According to the verses I'm saved. According to his interprations of those scriptures I'm not saved b/c I don't believe that you have to believe that Jeuss is the 2nd person to be saved!

My Salvation, according to scripture, according the verses above, I should be sealed until I go to live with Christ! One can be saved without understanding the totality of the Trinity at first can't they? If they can, then decide to believe that Jesus is not 2nd but God only, does he loose his salvation? What happened to once saved always saved (which DHK believes).

There are some serious flaws to the Theology that says you have to beleive that Jesus is the 2nd person in order to be saved! Especially when you can't offer any verse for it. And if you can't offer any verse, it's your opinion. If it's your opinion I put my faith in, I have not put my faith in the bible. And if my faith is not in the bible, my faith is not in Christ! And if my faith is not in Christ, I deny Christ and am an Anti Christ!

I know that sounds a little out there but that's how denominations are born b/c people take what they want the bible to say and establish it to be bible Doctrine!

If someone wants to proclaim Jesus as the 2nd person in the God head, I could care less! But when you want to tell me that my salvation is not salvation if I don't believe that, then we have a problem.

DHK and others, again I want to assure you that my attitude through this whole debate has been in line with what Jesus taught! I really appreciate you for engaging in the debate with me! Any thing I have said as been with good intent. I hope that my directness and straight forwardness has not been offensive. If you ever think that my intentions are to smear your reputation, please let me know and I will try to resolve anything someone may have a problem with.

I

 

[Darron Steele]

Here's the thing Darron! (And this is not a jab at DHK) but on many occasions he calls out those who that don't hold fast to what he believes. The reason for the question and the persistancy is to seperate Bible and Opinion.

Many times DHK has called many people Heretics! It's very offending!

I cannot see why you care if he calls you a heretic.

But the biggest problem with that is he's a moderator! He does hold a little higher office than most people.

I agree that he does at times have hostility control problems when
a) he really, really wants to be agreed with, or
b) a favorite precept of his is challenged.
So, are you hoping to have him removed? There is little chance of that happening. You are more likely to be banned yourself.

I have been here a while. Yes, DHK can get carried away, and can become personally vicious without realizing it. Still, I think for the most part he tries to be reasonably courteous and fair.

I had this happen to me a few weeks ago. In response, I told him that I did not want to argue with him about it anymore, and asked him to drop it. He did try to keep it going, but when it became blatant he was getting personal, he did drop it. Since then, I have not seen him get so nasty with anyone, including you.

I do not think he deserves to be removed as moderator. I think he tries to do right. If you have concerns, express it to both him and an administrator such as I Am Blessed 16.

If he chooses, b/c someone does not believe that Jesus is the 2nd person to be saved, he will call them a heratic and show the rest of the administrators someone is not a fundamental Chrisitian and they get booted. I really like this board and the people here and really don't want to leave!

Getting banned on this board is not that easy.

DHK cannot get anyone banned by himself. You are not likely to be banned from this board for the views you have expressed.

But If I can prove scripturally that what he's saying is not Bible I won't look so much like a heretic!

How about just do not argue with him about it anymore?

To the best of my knowledge, I draw my views from the Scriptures. I do my best to be a 100% `by the Book' Christian. Still, there are views I would never express here because they would be more likely to start an argument with a whole bunch of people with few people, if any, convinced. It is not worth the hassle.

I think you need to learn to pick your arguments. Whether a person believes you are a Christian because you believe in a Trinity, but not a "Second Person" status of Christ in it, is not worth arguing about. Let that person think whatever s/he wants about you.

About this trivial matter, just drop it. I can assure you that if you keep arguing with DHK, he will keep arguing with you. Neither you nor anyone will change his mind. Ask DHK to agree to disagree and to drop it.

If you are concerned about your posting privileges being revoked, I suggest a private message to an administrator such as I Am Blessed 16.