Do You Know Any Charasmatic baptists In Your Church or Friends?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I do believe in the fullness of the Holy Spirit for the work of God in the same tradition as Moody and R. A. Torrey. One of the most helpful books for my ministry I ever read was The Holy Spirit: Who He Is and What He Does by Torrey. Again, Torrey's pamphlet, Why God Used D. L. Moody, is excellent.

My grandfather's books on the Holy Spirit are in the same vein, in particular The Power of Pentecost or the Fullness of the Spirit. In fact, though Granddad was a Baptist he used to invite the Pentecostals to participate in his city-wide campaigns back in the '40's and '50s with the caveat that they would not talk about tongues and he would not preach about Baptism. This was before the Charismatic mess started in the '60's.

Where you are mistaken is that you're mixing up the original Pentecostal tradition which started at the Azusa Street Revival in 1906, and the modern Charismatic movement, which didn't begin until the early '60s. Harold Bredesen coined the term in 1962.

How the Charismatic Movement began by penetrating main line churches and spreading tongues doctrine (splitting many churches) is well documented by Richard Quebedeux in The New Charismatics. The old line Pentecostals don't believe in many things the Charismatics think are important: ecumenicalism (Pentecostals are separatists), "word of faith," "health and wealth," etc.

Furthermore, the heretical Charismatic doctrine of the "manifest sons of God" got the proto-Charismatics kicked out of the Church of God back in the '40s, I believe. (Don't have the details at hand right now.)

For perspective for you, I highly recommend Charismatic Chaos, by Calvinist John MacArthur. Or if you want a book by an old line Pentecostal, try Charismatism: Awakening or Apostasy? by O. Talmadge Spence.

John, you have that history down far better than I do....I am only really studied on the Welsh Methodist Movements in Revivals. They were Calvinistic BTW & very Orthodox. Everything has to be proven through scripture, & babbling in tongues is frowned upon & a flag to phony behavior. More importantly, the HS has total sovereignty over every situation & nobody has healing power rather it can be given in a moment & just as quickly taken away.

I'd like to read that book of your Grandfathers some day but I am totally new to Christianity & I'm overwhelmed with all the material I have to read and digest. right now my bible is my 1st point of reference.

 

[JesusFan]

John, you have that history down far better than I do....I am only really studied on the Welsh Methodist Movements in Revivals. They were Calvinistic BTW & very Orthodox. Everything has to be proven through scripture, & babbling in tongues is frowned upon & a flag to phony behavior. More importantly, the HS has total sovereignty over every situation & nobody has healing power rather it can be given in a moment & just as quickly taken away.

I'd like to read that book of your Grandfathers some day but I am totally new to Christianity & I'm overwhelmed with all the material I have to read and digest. right now my bible is my 1st point of reference.

Think we baptists really need to seperat out the wheat from the chaffee when discussing Spiritual gifts/HS etc!

MUCH of what goes on in those circles indeed in error and heresy, but can still learn about power in praise/worship, and that the Holy Spirit can sometimes do as He so wills!

 

[Tom Butler]

Think we baptists really need to seperat out the wheat from the chaffee when discussing Spiritual gifts/HS etc!

MUCH of what goes on in those circles indeed in error and heresy, but can still learn about power in praise/worship, and that the Holy Spirit can sometimes do as He so wills!

I think you're onto something here. I think many Baptists shy away from what I would call free worshipping because it might resemble the excesses we have witnessed among the Charismatics and Pentecostals.

It has been a long time since someone shouted in the middle of a worship service in my church. On occasion I will see hands lifted in the air, but it is the exception rather than the rule.

Yet.....I have also seen the Holy Spirit literally take over a service. I have seen tears, testimonies, singing at a new level of expression; I have seen people saved, lives rededicated, relationships repaired.

But never speaking in tongues; never folks falling out in the aisles (but yes, falling on their knees); and never the wild uncontrolled stuff that that seems to be worked up more than poured out.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I think you're onto something here. I think many Baptists shy away from what I would call free worshipping because it might resemble the excesses we have witnessed among the Charismatics and Pentecostals.

It has been a long time since someone shouted in the middle of a worship service in my church. On occasion I will see hands lifted in the air, but it is the exception rather than the rule.

Yet.....I have also seen the Holy Spirit literally take over a service. I have seen tears, testimonies, singing at a new level of expression; I have seen people saved, lives rededicated, relationships repaired.

But never speaking in tongues; never folks falling out in the aisles (but yes, falling on their knees); and never the wild uncontrolled stuff that that seems to be worked up more than poured out.

I wish I was there to have experienced it.....how wonderful that must of been!

 

[Old Union Brother]

I wish I was there to have experienced it.....how wonderful that must of been!

I wish that you could have been with us 2 weekends ago at a comunion service I attended. It was just as Tom described.

 

[John of Japan]

Would say there there are genuine Charasmatics, in sense hold to real Gospel and Real jesus, add 'distinctives" in their theology, BUT definitly cultic/heritical groups like Word of faith/prosperity. Kingdom Now etc!

Old line pentaclostals in say assemblies of God would severly disagree witht those "frindge/heretical" groups epousing in Charasmatic ranks!

"Third Wave" Charismatics are more likely to hold to the real Gospel and less likely to enter other churches to try to change them. They start their own churches. However, the tongues doctrine alone can be very divisive, so I would be very careful about allowing even a Third Wave Charismatic into my church.

 

[John of Japan]

John, you have that history down far better than I do....I am only really studied on the Welsh Methodist Movements in Revivals. They were Calvinistic BTW & very Orthodox. Everything has to be proven through scripture, & babbling in tongues is frowned upon & a flag to phony behavior. More importantly, the HS has total sovereignty over every situation & nobody has healing power rather it can be given in a moment & just as quickly taken away.

When I preach on revival I love one illustration about the Welsh Revival. Some reporters went there to learn about it, and asked a policeman, "Where is the Welsh Revival taking place?" He pointed to his heart and replied, "Here!"

I'd like to read that book of your Grandfathers some day but I am totally new to Christianity & I'm overwhelmed with all the material I have to read and digest. right now my bible is my 1st point of reference.

If you are not solidly rooted in the Word of God and its teaching about the Holy Spirit and His work, the many viewpoints and conflicting doctrines taught about the Spirit of God can be overwhelming.

 

[jbh28]

Don't know of any Charasmatic baptist nor any Charismatic baptists either.

 

[Tom Butler]

"Third Wave" Charismatics are more likely to hold to the real Gospel and less likely to enter other churches to try to change them. They start their own churches. However, the tongues doctrine alone can be very divisive, so I would be very careful about allowing even a Third Wave Charismatic into my church.

This is good advice, John. If one gets into your church, he'll reveal himself in time. There's no way it can't be divisive.

In my post #43 I used the term "worked up instead of poured out." This seems to be the modus operandi of Charismatics. The service begins with hard-driving music, heavy beat, hand-clapping, jumping up and down. In one service I attended, the worship leader cajoled the congregation. "Come on, we've got to get in the Spirit!" But, just like flipping a switch, he turned it off when it came time for the sermon. That, my friends, is a working up, not a pouring out.

From what I've read of the Welsh Revivals, now that was a pouring out.

And when the Holy Spirit takes over your worship, it is precious indeed.

 

[Dr. Bob]

When reading of the Welsh Revival be sure NOT to read into it any inkling of modern charismania (what passes for external gifts of the Spirit).

When you read "the Spirit came over the crowd and many fell silent or wept" people think the nonsense of the tongues/healing Bob Tilden or Oral Roberts is what was happening. Not so. Nothing like it.

Remember, the modern "craziness" (and I use that word intentionally, although "Demonic" might be more accurate) things that characterize charismania - tongues, smitten in spirit, healings - did not appear in ANY churches until years AFTER the Welsh Revival ended.

No parallel at all.

 

[John of Japan]

This is good advice, John. If one gets into your church, he'll reveal himself in time. There's no way it can't be divisive.

In my post #43 I used the term "worked up instead of poured out." This seems to be the modus operandi of Charismatics. The service begins with hard-driving music, heavy beat, hand-clapping, jumping up and down. In one service I attended, the worship leader cajoled the congregation. "Come on, we've got to get in the Spirit!" But, just like flipping a switch, he turned it off when it came time for the sermon. That, my friends, is a working up, not a pouring out.

From what I've read of the Welsh Revivals, now that was a pouring out.

And when the Holy Spirit takes over your worship, it is precious indeed.

Well said. Tongues are all worked up.

Once down in Tokyo I had a tongues speaker from the cultic "Spirit of Jesus Church" try to "evangelize" me to speak in tongues. She said to say "Lord Jesus Christ" in Japanese over and over again for a half hour, and I'd speak in tongues and feel so good. When I took out my NT and asked her to show me that in the Bible, she was completely lost.

 

[JesusFan]

I think you're onto something here. I think many Baptists shy away from what I would call free worshipping because it might resemble the excesses we have witnessed among the Charismatics and Pentecostals.

It has been a long time since someone shouted in the middle of a worship service in my church. On occasion I will see hands lifted in the air, but it is the exception rather than the rule.

Yet.....I have also seen the Holy Spirit literally take over a service. I have seen tears, testimonies, singing at a new level of expression; I have seen people saved, lives rededicated, relationships repaired.

But never speaking in tongues; never folks falling out in the aisles (but yes, falling on their knees); and never the wild uncontrolled stuff that that seems to be worked up more than poured out.

before joining a Local baptist Church was in an Assemblies of God Church...
I Never bought the second act of Grace "Baptism IN Holy Ghost
pastor trained at their Seminary VERY ground in Bible
Good worship and great teaching in "essentials" of the faith

Some gifts in operation, but NOT every service

For a pentacostal Church, a;most Baptist like...

Friensd was IBF and attended a service, complimented pastor as "preaching like a Baptist!"