Do You Know That You Are Saved?

[Martin]

I don't believe sfiC has reached the end of his knowledge on the subject, I believe he may have just figgered out the truth. That people refust to accept the truth that is written in God's Word.

==If you, or anyone else, believes that salvation can be undone by the hands of mortal man then it is you who refuses to accept Biblical truth. The Bible is clear, as I have pointed out several times in this thread, that Jesus taught that all sin can be forgiven (w/ the exception of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit). That means all sin, except such blasphemy, can be forgiven. Suicide is not unforgivable if the person was saved. Why not? Because their position, perfect forever, is settled in heaven (Heb 10:14). They are elected by God, and God will finish what He started in them (Eph 1:13-14, 1Thess 5:23-24, Phil 1:6).

If suicide does not break the commandment suicide,

==There is no such commandment. The commandment forbids murder. Is murder and suicide the same thing? I can't find even one Scripture that directly states it is. If you can, or if you have discovered an 11th commandment, please show me where it is at. Either way it is certainly clear that suicide is a vile sin and that most of the people who kill themselves are lost. They have perished in hell because they are lost and not because they killed themselves. They would have gone to hell regardless how they died. However I don't know that Scripture teaches that suicide and murder are the exact same thing. If you say it does then you should prove it and not just claim it.

if it does not mean that one has not held fast to faith in the hope of the gospel (Jesus Christ), where does it fall?

==Let's not be confused here. Perseverence in the faith is a sign of true salvation, not a condition of salvation.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Scripture clearly shows that those who do not continue in the faith will not be presented to God as holy, nor will they be preasented as being blameless.

The Word of God tells us that when Christ comes for His own, they wil be like Him, for they shall see Him as He is.

Those who continue in the faith will be the ones who are holy and blameless. All others apparently will not see Christ in His lovingkindness, for they will not be presented holy and blameless.

How can He present one to the Father as unholy and with blame who has seen Him at His coming?

Suicides have not held fast the gospel, they have not continued in the faith. To say they have is contrary to the Word of God.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

==There is no such commandment. The commandment forbids murder. Is murder and suicide the same thing? I can't find even one Scripture that directly states it is. If you can, or if you have discovered an 11th commandment, please show me where it is at. Either way it is certainly clear that suicide is a vile sin and that most of the people who kill themselves are lost. They have perished in hell because they are lost and not because they killed themselves. They would have gone to hell regardless how they died. However I don't know that Scripture teaches that suicide and murder are the exact same thing. If you say it does then you should prove it and not just claim it.

Suicide is self-murder. It does indeed fall under the category of 'Thou shalt not kill'.

 

[webdog]

Suicide is self-murder. It does indeed fall under the category of 'Thou shalt not kill'.

Murder is taking the life of someone ELSE.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

You say one who is a Christian can waver in faith and commit suicide and still go to heaven. Yet God's Word says one who wavers in his or her faith should not be made to think they will receive anything of the Lord.

James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
James 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

Your message clearly is contrary to these verses. Don't even give them the impression that the Lord will reward them.

 

[webdog]

You say one who is a Christian can waver in faith and commit suicide and still go to heaven. Yet God's Word says one who wavers in his or her faith should not be made to think they will receive anything of the Lord.

James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
James 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

Your message clearly is contrary to these verses. Don't even give them the impression that the Lord will reward them.

You're perfect, I guess, never wavering, or wavered...

Would help to quote those verses in context, as it is not dealing with eternal salvation whatsoever.

 

[tinytim]

If you must continue in your faith to go to Heaven, then you are depending on yourself...

This is a false doctrine... It is what Paul preached against... It is based on works.... And it denies Christ.

Continuing in faith is a sign of salvation, not prerequisite.
The Holy Spirit will make sure we continue... He continues us.
It is through Him we persevere. It is through Him we endure.

Please don't let any man lie to you that you can work yourself to Heaven.
You cannot keep yourself saved... Quit denying the work of Calvary, and accept the "finished" work that Christ did.

It is finished....

 

[AresMan]

If someone was disobedient to the law, and drives 10 mph over the speed limit, and as a result is hit by another automobile and dies as a consequence, is he in hell, because he died as a consequence of sin--disobeying God-ordained authority?

What about Moses, who died because he disobeyed God in striking the rock a second time? Is he in hell?

 

[AresMan]

If you must continue in your faith to go to Heaven, then you are depending on yourself...

This is a false doctrine... It is what Paul preached against... It is based on works.... And it denies Christ.

Continuing in faith is a sign of salvation, not prerequisite.
The Holy Spirit will make sure we continue... He continues us.
It is through Him we persevere. It is through Him we endure.

Please don't let any man lie to you that you can work yourself to Heaven.
You cannot keep yourself saved... Quit denying the work of Calvary, and accept the "finished" work that Christ did.

It is finished....

Amen! Amen! Did I mention, Amen? :thumbs:

 

[tinytim]

Heaven is going to be a lonely place... only those that are perfect.

Not even those that "think" they are perfect... for that is prideful.... will be there...

It's a shame Christ died for the whole world, and noone except the "perfect ones" here on BB will get to go.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Moses did not die because of striking the rock. He died because all men die. His punishment for striking that rock was not death!

 

[webdog]

Moses did not die because of striking the rock. He died because all men die. His punishment for striking that rock was not death!

His disobedience led to his premature death, so yes, you are correct in that the act of striking a rock did not lead to death.

Ananais and Saphirra had their lives prematurely snuffed out because of sin, too.

 

[christianyouth]

I really liked that post Martin. All great books that you recommended!


Just a question, you did not really expound on what the Light/darkness means in the 1st point you made, what does that signify? Is light symbolizing moral purity while darkness symbolizes sin?
I've heard someone say that since 1 John was written dealing with the Gnostics that the point John was making about the 'light' and saying that in God there is no darkness at all, was he was deliberately preaching something that contrasted to the Gnostic teachings. The Gnostics taught that God was some shadowy and mysterious being, and supposably that verse was used to mean 'walking in the light of God's revealed will', or something of that sort.
I heard that on a sermon, so I was just curious what you take that contrast to mean.


Also, I hope you understand that this is a highly unpopular interpretation of the book of 1 John. The majority of preachers will interpret 1 John as fruits for 'abiding' in Christ, not being saved. For some reason they see a distinction there, and they believe that some Christians abide with Him, and others do not.

Your Brother,
Andy

 

[skypair]

I don't believe sfiC has reached the end of his knowledge on the subject, I believe he may have just figgered out the truth. That people refust to accept the truth that is written in God's Word.

Let me ask a question that sfiC may not have asked...

If suicide does not break the commandment suicide, if it does not mean that one has not held fast to faith in the hope of the gospel (Jesus Christ), where does it fall?

Of course, it breaks that commandment. Do you remember what Christ said on the cross? "FORGIVE them for they know not what they do." ALL sin is forgiven at the cross.

And aren't we ALL prone to sin even after salvation? Do you sin occassionally? And do you hold infants and the insane responsible for their sins though they don't know what they are?

How about your "unknown sin?" Sin that hasn't been revealed to you by God. Will you be damned for that?? See, sfic (or rather, his "masters" likely) is 'banking on' a faulty interpretation of Hebrews 10:26. He doesn't know what that scripture means.

skypair

 

[bapmom]

Martin,

thank you so much for starting this thread. In the past Ive had a hard time articulating this idea, and you have been a big help! Ive enjoyed reading your posts throughout this discussion!

 

[skypair]

By telling one they will still go to heaven, you are condoning suicide.

Diggin --- are you at all familiar with the Bema judgment, 1Cor 3:11-15?? If you were, you would see that the last vestiges of sin are "burned away" there and the believer will be saved "yet so as by fire."

We are to counsel people, especially believers, away from sin because we "hate the [heavenly] garment spotted by the flesh." Jude 1:23

You are preaching the very "gospel" that all Christianity rails against --- that one can save oneself.

skypair

 

[Martin]

Suicide is self-murder. It does indeed fall under the category of 'Thou shalt not kill'.

==Where, in Scripture, is that assertion made?

Please keep in mind that I am not saying suicide is not a sin. It is a sin, a vile sin. Howver I am not sure that Scripture equates it with murder. So what I am asking you to do is to show me in Scripture where it does equate suicide with murder. I am not aware of any place where it does. Also how do you deal with Mark 3/Matthew 12 where Jesus directly states that all sins and blasphemy can be forgiven except the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

 

[Martin]

Scripture clearly shows that those who do not continue in the faith will not be presented to God as holy, nor will they be preasented as being blameless.

==Are you saying that perseverence is a condition of salvation or a result of true salvation?

Suicides have not held fast the gospel, they have not continued in the faith. To say they have is contrary to the Word of God.

==So you believe that apostasy and suicide are one in the same? Scriptural proof?

 

[MB]

Hi Martin;

==Where, in Scripture, is that assertion made?

Please keep in mind that I am not saying suicide is not a sin. It is a sin, a vile sin. Howver I am not sure that Scripture equates it with murder. So what I am asking you to do is to show me in Scripture where it does equate suicide with murder. I am not aware of any place where it does. Also how do you deal with Mark 3/Matthew 12 where Jesus directly states that all sins and blasphemy can be forgiven except the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

If a man is put to death because of something he refuses to do, Some would call this suicide. Certainly if the man had complied he would have lived. Scripture says to choose life, but when we are placed in a situation where we have to denounce Christ or die and we do not denounce Him Aren't we commiting suicide?.
Since suicide is doing something that results in our death it only seems reasonable to assume that any thing that causes our death we could have avoided is suicide.
MB

 

[Martin]

Just a question, you did not really expound on what the Light/darkness means in the 1st point you made, what does that signify? Is light symbolizing moral purity while darkness symbolizes sin?

==I think that "light" there is holiness and "darkness" there is sin. A person who is in darkness is in sin while a person who is in the light is walking in God's Holiness. Very general, I know, but I think that is the jest of it.

I've heard someone say that since 1 John was written dealing with the Gnostics that the point John was making about the 'light' and saying that in God there is no darkness at all, was he was deliberately preaching something that contrasted to the Gnostic teachings. The Gnostics taught that God was some shadowy and mysterious being, and supposably that verse was used to mean 'walking in the light of God's revealed will', or something of that sort.
I heard that on a sermon, so I was just curious what you take that contrast to mean.

==As far as I can tell I don't have a problem with that understanding. How much it may, or may not, differ from what I said above would depend upon the details.

I hope you understand that this is a highly unpopular interpretation of the book of 1 John. The majority of preachers will interpret 1 John as fruits for 'abiding' in Christ, not being saved. For some reason they see a distinction there, and they believe that some Christians abide with Him, and others do not.

==Yea that view has been promoted by men such as Zane Hodges and, I believe, it was at one point the main view at Dallas Theological Seminary. However I think the view I have put forward is the most "natural" understanding of the text.

:thumbs: