Do you Love YHVH?

[Adonia]

You still misunderstand Paul's writings (as Peter says)

Being "under the law" is bein under its condemnation. That does not mean we stop doing it or we would still be under its condemnation because we would be sinning.

"Works of Law" is oral pharasic judaism. You can't be righteous by man-made religion. Only by the pure written word.

Nowhere has the Christian faith been told to rely only on the written word. Christianity has it's earthly authority and teaching on the Church, made up of living people put into authority by God to teach and expound on the faith, taking into account EVERYTHING - proper authority, inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and yes the written word as a guide.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Nowhere has the Christian faith been told to rely only on the written word. Christianity has it's earthly authority and teaching on the Church, made up of living people put into authority by God to teach and expound on the faith, taking into account EVERYTHING - proper authority, inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and yes the written word as a guide.

In the Church of True Believers everywhere, the Christian faith has always been told relying only on the Written Word. Where the church like Roman Catholicism deviated from this principle, it putrified into anti-Christ. Christianity has NO earthly authority or teaching, but is made up of God's chosen people of spiritual Israel under authority of the God and doctrine according to the Scriptures, taking into account nothing else while being especially wary of authorities of the world and spirits of men assuming and pretending Divine inspiration.

 

[Adonia]

In the Church of True Believers everywhere, the Christian faith has always been told relying only on the Written Word. Where the church like Roman Catholicism deviated from this principle, it putrified into anti-Christ. Christianity has NO earthly authority or teaching, but is made up of God's chosen people of spiritual Israel under authority of the God and doctrine according to the Scriptures, taking into account nothing else while being especially wary of authorities of the world and spirits of men assuming and pretending Divine inspiration.

Too bad you miss what the Scriptures actually say. It is THE CHURCH on earth that was created for proper teaching (as the Scriptures so correctly tell us). Jesus could have just written a book and let it go at that leaving it for all of us to decide things on our own, but that was not the case. He created a church and put people in charge of it to rightly discern things for the faithful, and the teachings of said church were binding - here and in heaven no less! And the church with the help of the Holy Spirit rightly decides things. St. Paul himself tells the other Christian believers in foreign lands in his letters to them on what the truth is on specific Christian teachings. Good grief, how can you miss that simple reality?

 

[Darrell C]

You still misunderstand Paul's writings (as Peter says)

Being "under the law" is bein under its condemnation.

That is an application found in Paul's writing, true, but that is not the context of many of his warning about those who seek to be righteous through the works of the Law.

For example, as you have by promoting, falsely, that one must "keep the Sabbath."

Understand what he says in context, Jason.

There is no controversy that this...

Galatians 3:15-19
King James Version (KJV)

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


...is speaking about the Covenant of Law, under which the works of the Law were given, and that it was not meant to be an enduring Covenant.

That does not mean we stop doing it or we would still be under its condemnation because we would be sinning.

There are numerous warnings for those who would seek to remain under the Law in the New Testament, so in regards to whether we should "stop doing it" or not that is simply Basic Bible, my friend.

We do not nullify the principles that are given in the Law, because the Covenant of Law did not originate the principles it holds. It has always been wrong to disobey the revealed will of God, it has always been wrong to murder, it has always been wrong to lie, etc.

But, understanding what Covenant we are under is very important, and unfortunately it is not an issue that is often discussed in typical Church fellowships.

The Covenants describe the relationship GOd determines between Himself and man, and under the Covenant of Law the relationship was limited to the temporal/physical sphere. Under the New Covenant, Jason, we are introduced to relationship with God that is Eternal and spiritual.

This is precisely what Christ is speaking about when He calls Himself the True Vine. The "Vine" that the disciples would have known He contrasted Himself with was Israel herself, and that is how they were in relationship with God...through that Covenant which was specific to Israel. He is basically saying "From henceforth do not trust in your relationship with God through your heritage, but trust in your relationship with God through me."

And Christ is the Veil by which men enter into the presence of God today.

"Works of Law" is oral pharasic judaism. You can't be righteous by man-made religion. Only by the pure written word.

The Word of God is indeed said to be a cleansing agent, that is true, but, have you considered that even during the Age of Law that Gentiles themselves had the Law written on their hearts?



Romans 2:11-15
King James Version (KJV)

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


God has always provided revelation of Himself to man from Day Six: the internal witness of God, which every man has, the testimony of Creation, and direct revelation, such as God speaking directly to man (whether audibly or to their hearts), God speaking to man through men (Prophets), and God speaking to men through His (written) Word.

God has, from Genesis to Revelation always shown the same consistent pattern, and no man will stand before Christ and say "...but, I didn't know, you didn't tell me!"

So we must properly place the revelation He provides in its proper context, and again, it is just a basic Bible Principle that the Age of Law was a temporary Era that did not disannul the promises GOd had previously made in regards to the Plan of Redemption that He first spoke of in Genesis 3:15.

God has been consistent in judging men according to their understanding of the revelation provided to them and their response to that revelation. So those in Abel's day are not going to be held accountable for the revelation of Abraham's day, they will not be held accountable for the revelation in Moses' day, and they will not be held accountable for the revelation in this Age.

God is Just, and shows grace to each Age according to the revelation He provided them. What you must do is set aside what men tell you the truth is, and ask God to show you that truth in His Word.

He will do that.


God bless.

 

[Jason1]

That is an application found in Paul's writing, true, but that is not the context of many of his warning about those who seek to be righteous through the works of the Law.

For example, as you have by promoting, falsely, that one must "keep the Sabbath."

Understand what he says in context, Jason.

There is no controversy that this...

Galatians 3:15-19
King James Version (KJV)

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


...is speaking about the Covenant of Law, under which the works of the Law were given, and that it was not meant to be an enduring Covenant.




There are numerous warnings for those who would seek to remain under the Law in the New Testament, so in regards to whether we should "stop doing it" or not that is simply Basic Bible, my friend.

We do not nullify the principles that are given in the Law, because the Covenant of Law did not originate the principles it holds. It has always been wrong to disobey the revealed will of God, it has always been wrong to murder, it has always been wrong to lie, etc.

But, understanding what Covenant we are under is very important, and unfortunately it is not an issue that is often discussed in typical Church fellowships.

The Covenants describe the relationship GOd determines between Himself and man, and under the Covenant of Law the relationship was limited to the temporal/physical sphere. Under the New Covenant, Jason, we are introduced to relationship with God that is Eternal and spiritual.

This is precisely what Christ is speaking about when He calls Himself the True Vine. The "Vine" that the disciples would have known He contrasted Himself with was Israel herself, and that is how they were in relationship with God...through that Covenant which was specific to Israel. He is basically saying "From henceforth do not trust in your relationship with God through your heritage, but trust in your relationship with God through me."

And Christ is the Veil by which men enter into the presence of God today.




The Word of God is indeed said to be a cleansing agent, that is true, but, have you considered that even during the Age of Law that Gentiles themselves had the Law written on their hearts?



Romans 2:11-15
King James Version (KJV)

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


God has always provided revelation of Himself to man from Day Six: the internal witness of God, which every man has, the testimony of Creation, and direct revelation, such as God speaking directly to man (whether audibly or to their hearts), God speaking to man through men (Prophets), and God speaking to men through His (written) Word.

God has, from Genesis to Revelation always shown the same consistent pattern, and no man will stand before Christ and say "...but, I didn't know, you didn't tell me!"

So we must properly place the revelation He provides in its proper context, and again, it is just a basic Bible Principle that the Age of Law was a temporary Era that did not disannul the promises GOd had previously made in regards to the Plan of Redemption that He first spoke of in Genesis 3:15.

God has been consistent in judging men according to their understanding of the revelation provided to them and their response to that revelation. So those in Abel's day are not going to be held accountable for the revelation of Abraham's day, they will not be held accountable for the revelation in Moses' day, and they will not be held accountable for the revelation in this Age.

God is Just, and shows grace to each Age according to the revelation He provided them. What you must do is set aside what men tell you the truth is, and ask God to show you that truth in His Word.

He will do that.


God bless.

If the law is written in your heart, then you would keep the sabbath.

The torah of Elohim is eternal. What was added because of transgression was the sacrificial system that was our "trainer" to bring us to Messiah. Only he could remove the sins, and before him they were covered.

Only wicked men seek not to be under the Kingship (rule) of the Father

 

[utilyan]

LOL, you didn't even address the issue. Will you admit your argument is weak?

Not weak at all, it calls into Sincerity, a concept alien to robots who are mind-raped by "regeneration".

You make the mistake as Calvin that God's sole motivation is a legal matter. Or like the devil as long as you got the right mark then your "chosen".

God doesn't operate by satanic methods.


Matthew 5

19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


I mean between you and Jason who is telling us follow the law?

Menno you don't tell anyone to follow the law in fact you even discourage folks to even try on "reward" principles.

You would say you don't know if God wants a person to follow his law.

Because if HE DID WANT THAT, it would be clear he WANTS ALL TO BE SAVED.

Matthew 23

13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.


Who's that sound like? Everyone here knows they talking about you.

 

[MennoSota]

Not weak at all, it calls into Sincerity, a concept alien to robots who are mind-raped by "regeneration".

You make the mistake as Calvin that God's sole motivation is a legal matter. Or like the devil as long as you got the right mark then your "chosen".

God doesn't operate by satanic methods.


Matthew 5

19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


I mean between you and Jason who is telling us follow the law?

Menno you don't tell anyone to follow the law in fact you even discourage folks to even try on "reward" principles.

You would say you don't know if God wants a person to follow his law.

Because if HE DID WANT THAT, it would be clear he WANTS ALL TO BE SAVED.

Matthew 23

13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.


Who's that sound like? Everyone here knows they talking about you.

No one says the law is bad. However, the law cannot save you because you cannot fulfill the law perfectly. Only one person fulfilled the law perfectly and it is in Christ that we are made right with the law.

Is the perfect law the Torah or is it the living Word, Yeshua, YHWH himself, who fulfilled the Torah?
I look to the perfect law who has set me free.
The Mosaic law could not set anyone free. It only condemns. The fulfillment of the law, the perfect law, Yeshua, YHWH himself, sets me free. I do what the perfect law says and I am blessed.

Utilyan, it's amazing how many times you claim that I have said something that I never said. Perhaps you need to speak untruth in order to maintain your bitter spirit.

Perhaps one day God will reveal His grace to you and you can be set free.

James 1:16-27
[16]So don’t be misled, my dear brothers and sisters.
[17]Whatever is good and perfect is a gift coming down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow.
[18]He chose to give birth to us by giving us his true word. And we, out of all creation, became his prized possession.
[19]Understand this, my dear brothers and sisters: You must all be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to get angry.
[20]Human anger does not produce the righteousness God desires.
[21]So get rid of all the filth and evil in your lives, and humbly accept the word God has planted in your hearts, for it has the power to save your souls.
[22]But don’t just listen to God’s word. You must do what it says. Otherwise, you are only fooling yourselves.
[23]For if you listen to the word and don’t obey, it is like glancing at your face in a mirror.
[24]You see yourself, walk away, and forget what you look like.

[25]But if you look carefully into the perfect law that sets you free, and if you do what it says and don’t forget what you heard, then God will bless you for doing it.

[26]If you claim to be religious but don’t control your tongue, you are fooling yourself, and your religion is worthless.
[27]Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you.

 

[Darrell C]

If the law is written in your heart, then you would keep the sabbath.

The torah of Elohim is eternal. What was added because of transgression was the sacrificial system that was our "trainer" to bring us to Messiah. Only he could remove the sins, and before him they were covered.

Only wicked men seek not to be under the Kingship (rule) of the Father

Show me where God held Gentiles guilty for not keeping the Sabbath, Jason.

And you can look in either Old or New Testament.


God bless.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Show me where God held Gentiles guilty for not keeping the Sabbath, Jason.

And you can look in either Old or New Testament.


God bless.

Why? What would be the point?

It's pointless!

 

[Darrell C]

Why? What would be the point?

It's pointless!

It isn't pointless, Gerhard, as the proposal this addresses tries to make "keeping the Sabbath" a universal Law that all must observe, or, they are not "obeying God."

If you read the quote from Romans, it makes it very clear that Gentiles...who do not have the Law (past tense of course)...show/evidence the works of the Law written on their hearts.

And it is highly unlikely that Gentiles were "keeping the Sabbath" they had never heard of.


God bless.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Too bad you miss what the Scriptures actually say. It is THE CHURCH on earth that was created for proper teaching (as the Scriptures so correctly tell us). Jesus could have just written a book and let it go at that leaving it for all of us to decide things on our own, but that was not the case. He created a church and put people in charge of it to rightly discern things for the faithful, and the teachings of said church were binding - here and in heaven no less! And the church with the help of the Holy Spirit rightly decides things. St. Paul himself tells the other Christian believers in foreign lands in his letters to them on what the truth is on specific Christian teachings. Good grief, how can you miss that simple reality?

God put no people in charge! That's the deception that anti-Christ so successfully has employed for worldly profit and satisfaction of their lusting for power, authority, riches and sadistic suppression of any posing a threat to their holy sea as I think they call themselves. Which they ALWAYS finish off with calling upon <<the Holy Spirit to rightly decide things>>. Audacious blasphemy!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It isn't pointless, Gerhard, as the proposal this addresses tries to make "keeping the Sabbath" a universal Law that all must observe, or, they are not "obeying God."

If you read the quote from Romans, it makes it very clear that Gentiles...who do not have the Law (past tense of course)...show/evidence the works of the Law written on their hearts.

And it is highly unlikely that Gentiles were "keeping the Sabbath" they had never heard of.


God bless.

We both know that whoever <<tries to make "keeping the Sabbath" a universal Law that all must observe, or, they are not "obeying God">>, talks nonsense. Then we fall for their nonsense and try to answer nonsense with nonsense.

So is it not <<highly unlikely that Gentiles were "keeping the Sabbath" they had never heard of>>, it is most definite! But certainly not because <<Gentiles who do not have the Law ... show/evidence (of) the works of the Law written on their hearts>>, because <<the Law written on their hearts>> is the law written on their hearts, and is not the Law of God, written on their hearts.

If it were the Law of God that was written on their hearts, they no longer would or could have been <Gentiles>, because any who would or could have the Law of God written on their hearts HAD OR HAVE to have Jesus Christ in their hearts. And if one knows God in Christ in his heart, he must have the knowledge and understanding of Him which the Scriptures would have shown him without a doubt through the Holy Spirit. By that time, it will be inevitable such person will have some Scriptural understanding of the Lord's Sabbath Day. But that will be light years and centuries distance away from being a Gentile with his own law without God and without Christ written in his heart.

 

[Jason1]

Show me where God held Gentiles guilty for not keeping the Sabbath, Jason.

And you can look in either Old or New Testament.


God bless.

Gentiles are those who are not in covenant with YHVH. If they desire to be, they can join themselves to Israel (rom 11) and be partakers of the promises. Then they are bound to follow the voice of YHVH (torah).

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning

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[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

Six Hour Warning

This thread will be closed sometime after 11:00 PM Pacific.