Do you really understand your 'opponents' views?

[Skandelon]

Would those of you who would consider yourself Calvinistic agree or disagree with this assessment, and why?

"Critics of Arminianism tend to portray the Arminian view of election in this way: God elects to salvation those whom He knows will believe anyway, therefore election is basically meaningless. God's election is conditional on what human beings will choose to do: He just elects those who elect themselves--in fact, this view makes Him powerless to save anyone without their cooperation. The sacrifice of Jesus is not sufficient to save; it must be mixed with the individual's faith in order to be effective. The believer becomes his own co-savior and robs glory for salvation that is due to God. He gives himself a means of boasting, even though the Bible says to "let him who boasts, boast in the Lord."

 

[gb93433]

The real opponent is Satan.

 

[Herald]

The OP is asking a hypothetical question, not about Arminianism, but about semi-Pelagianism. Semi-Pelagianism purports that man cooperates with God in salvation. So, does the Calvinist really understand his opponents view? As a theological system - yes. Any soteriological system that teaches a synergism between God and man is semi-Pelagian in nature. The problem is that most "evangelical" semi-Pelagians bristle at the accusation. Most would be adamant in refuting the notion that they cooperate with God in salvation. Together with Calvinists they would say that God gets all the glory in salvation and receives all the credit; that man does nothing to merit eternal life. The disagreement between the two camps is over what constitutes a work on man's part.

 

[Iconoclast]

The OP is asking a hypothetical question, not about Arminianism, but about semi-Pelagianism. Semi-Pelagianism purports that man cooperates with God in salvation. So, does the Calvinist really understand his opponents view? As a theological system - yes. Any soteriological system that teaches a synergism between God and man is semi-Pelagian in nature. The problem is that most "evangelical" semi-Pelagians bristle at the accusation. Most would be adamant in refuting the notion that they cooperate with God in salvation. Together with Calvinists they would say that God gets all the glory in salvation and receives all the credit; that man does nothing to merit eternal life. The disagreement between the two camps is over what constitutes a work on man's part.

:thumbs::applause::thumbs::applause:

Yes...for sure. The closer the arrow gets to the bullseye...the more bristling takes place. Or....when clearly identified, those who hold or teach such ideas say that that is not the position they hold

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The OP is asking a hypothetical question, not about Arminianism, but about semi-Pelagianism. Semi-Pelagianism purports that man cooperates with God in salvation. So, does the Calvinist really understand his opponents view? As a theological system - yes. Any soteriological system that teaches a synergism between God and man is semi-Pelagian in nature. The problem is that most "evangelical" semi-Pelagians bristle at the accusation. Most would be adamant in refuting the notion that they cooperate with God in salvation. Together with Calvinists they would say that God gets all the glory in salvation and receives all the credit; that man does nothing to merit eternal life. The disagreement between the two camps is over what constitutes a work on man's part.

"To God belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. Whether ye show what is in your minds or conceal it, God Calleth you to account for it. He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and punisheth whom He pleaseth, for God hath power over all things. " The Holy Quran 5:18

If Arminianism or non-Calvinism is "semi-Pelagianism" Then Calvinism is semi-Islam.

Accusations like that Herald are pure well-poisoning, fruitless and informally logically fallacious at best; and un-Christian at worst.

 

[Iconoclast]

"To God belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. Whether ye show what is in your minds or conceal it, God Calleth you to account for it. He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and punisheth whom He pleaseth, for God hath power over all things. " The Holy Quran 5:18

If Arminianism or non-Calvinism is "semi-Pelagianism" Then Calvinism is semi-Islam.

Accusations like that Herald are pure well-poisoning, fruitless and informally logically fallacious at best; and un-Christian at worst.

Those who misunderstand calvinism.....think in fatalistic terms like islam would. This is mis-guided. Heralds post was right on the money.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Those who misunderstand calvinism.....think in fatalistic terms like islam would. This is mis-guided. Heralds post was right on the money.

WOW! let's restate the point I made by editing your post:

Those who misunderstand Arminianism.....think in anthropocentric terms like Pelagius would. This is mis-guided. HeirofSalvations post was right on the money.

Herald is "poisoning the well" and committing a "genetic fallacy" all at the same time with this hokum. I call him on it; and you double-down on it. :BangHead:

Some might say I was: "demonstrating absurdity by being.........."

 

[kyredneck]

.... Any soteriological system that teaches a synergism between God and man is semi-Pelagian in nature. The problem is that most "evangelical" semi-Pelagians bristle at the accusation. Most would be adamant in refuting the notion that they cooperate with God in salvation.....

Here the simple question is asked:

"Which doctrine do you believe?

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration."

I was surprised (at that time) of the number (of freewillers) who rejected both. I didn't understand then, don't understand now. Maybe I'll learn something here and come to understand how freewillers are not synergistic.

 

[gb93433]

If people had a regular devotional life that would be a big step for most.

 

[gb93433]

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration."

What title would you give to Jesus? Isn't that much like asking if Jn 15:16 supports calvinism?

Jn. 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."

 

[Greektim]

"To God belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. Whether ye show what is in your minds or conceal it, God Calleth you to account for it. He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and punisheth whom He pleaseth, for God hath power over all things. " The Holy Quran 5:18

If Arminianism or non-Calvinism is "semi-Pelagianism" Then Calvinism is semi-Islam.

Accusations like that Herald are pure well-poisoning, fruitless and informally logically fallacious at best; and un-Christian at worst.

I think he was pointing out that the post and position you caricatured above was not really Arminianism but rather Semi-Pelagianism which I agree is spot on! He is not equating the 2 but differentiating them. Something you might consider doing so as not to blow up in your face since you failed to demonstrate that original question posed. It seems you don't even understand what Arminians believe.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I think he was pointing out that the post and position you caricatured above was not really Arminianism but rather Semi-Pelagianism which I agree is spot on! He is not equating the 2 but differentiating them. Something you might consider doing so as not to blow up in your face since you failed to demonstrate that original question posed. It seems you don't even understand what Arminians believe.

As a theological system - yes. Any soteriological system that teaches a synergism between God and man is semi-Pelagian in nature.

He is not equating the 2 but

Yes he was, read it again.

It seems you don't even understand what Arminians believe.

OH! Is that what it is! silly me, let me go google...what is it? Armenianism?: says they are some kind of Eastern European people group-descended from some Bulgar/Romanians..etc... oh I give up, you must be correct, I should just go home now, wait... I am home... I'm confused.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The answer, Generally speaking, to the question the thread asks "Do you understand your opponents views?" will be a resounding................. NO. Just wait and watch.

 

[Iconoclast]

WOW! let's restate the point I made by editing your post:

Those who misunderstand Arminianism.....think in anthropocentric terms like Pelagius would. This is mis-guided. HeirofSalvations post was right on the money.

Herald is "poisoning the well" and committing a "genetic fallacy" all at the same time with this hokum. I call him on it; and you double-down on it. :BangHead:

Some might say I was: "demonstrating absurdity by being.........."

HOS,

Could you explain your post...how do you see this similarity to Islam???

How do you see Herald poisoning anything?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

HOS,

Could you explain your post...how do you see this similarity to Islam???

How do you see Herald poisoning anything?

Could you explain your post...how do you see this similarity to Islam???

The Point is..............I DON'T:BangHead: But, strictly speaking, the quote from the quran that I posted does not, taken at face value... say anything that a Calvinist would disagree with. If under a Pseudonym like "DoGMonergist" I had posted that quote and then falsely attributed it to John Piper then the Calvinist peanut gallery would have responded :thumbs::applause::thumbsup:AMEN.
After all, I assure you all educated Muslims will confirm that the sum of 2 and 2 is in fact 4. So would I. Does that make me "semi-Muslim?" No it doesn't. Fact is, a Calvinist would confirm that there is One True God and his son is Jesus Christ. So would Pelagius. Are Calvinists then, "Semi-Pelagians"? That is why my statement initially was
"IF Arminianism is Semi-Pelagian THEN Calvinism is Semi-Islam"
the conclusion you were supposed to infer would have been....

But Calvinism is NOT semi-Islam
THEREFORE......
Arminianism is NOT semi-Pelagianism

Alternatively....
If P then Q
Not Q
therefore Not P (Modus Tollens)

This is that carnal reasoning stuff that is not of God. Witches with Polydactyly use it, we should burn them.

How do you see Herald poisoning anything

He is not poisoning ANYTHING he is Poisoning the well and creating a genetic fallacy google it.

 

[Greektim]

The Point is..............I DON'T:BangHead: But, strictly speaking, the quote from the quran that I posted does not, taken at face value... say anything that a Calvinist would disagree with. If under a Pseudonym like "DoGMonergist" I had posted that quote and then falsely attributed it to John Piper then the Calvinist peanut gallery would have responded :thumbs::applause::thumbsup:AMEN.
After all, I assure you all educated Muslims will confirm that the sum of 2 and 2 is in fact 4. So would I. Does that make me "semi-Muslim?" No it doesn't. Fact is, a Calvinist would confirm that there is One True God and his son is Jesus Christ. So would Pelagius. Are Calvinists then, "Semi-Pelagians"? That is why my statement initially was
"IF Arminianism is Semi-Pelagian THEN Calvinism is Semi-Islam"
the conclusion you were supposed to infer would have been....

But Calvinism is NOT semi-Islam
THEREFORE......
Arminianism is NOT semi-Pelagianism

Alternatively....
If P then Q
Not Q
therefore Not P (Modus Tollens)

This is that carnal reasoning stuff that is not of God. Witches with Polydactyly use it, we should burn them.



He is not poisoning ANYTHING he is Poisoning the well and creating a genetic fallacy google it.

That's been the entire point... no one is saying Arminianism is Semi-Pelagianism. But we are admitting that they often get confused. Thus the point of the OP is whether we actually understand our opponent. I would argue that if we can't make this distinction, then we clearly do not understand.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

That's been the entire point... no one is saying Arminianism is Semi-Pelagianism. But we are admitting that they often get confused. Thus the point of the OP is whether we actually understand our opponent. I would argue that if we can't make this distinction, then we clearly do not understand.

no one is saying Arminianism is Semi-Pelagianism.

As a theological system - yes. Any soteriological system that teaches a synergism between God and man is semi-Pelagian in nature

Yes...for sure. The closer the arrow gets to the bullseye...the more bristling takes place. Or....when clearly identified, those who hold or teach such ideas say that that is not the position they hold

My mistake.

 

[kyredneck]

If people had a regular devotional life that would be a big step for most.

Actually, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

But this IS a theological discussion forum, you know.

What title would you give to Jesus?

He of all entities knows that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

Isn't that much like asking if Jn 15:16 supports calvinism?

Jn. 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."

The point you're trying to make here escapes me.

 

[Skandelon]

The disagreement between the two camps is over what constitutes a work on man's part.

I agree, but Calvinists put themselves in a catch 22 on this point. If they argue that a faith response to the gospel appeal is a "work" then they too have to admit they believe we are saved by Grace through works. Regardless of if the 'faith response' is free or irresistibly caused by the grace of God it is STILL the means by which we are saved. So, are we saved by Grace through works or not? If you call 'faith' a 'work' then you must answer that question in the affirmative.

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree, but Calvinists put themselves in a catch 22 on this point. If they argue that a faith response to the gospel appeal is a "work" then they too have to admit they believe we are saved by Grace through works. Regardless of if the 'faith response' is free or irresistibly caused by the grace of God it is STILL the means by which we are saved. So, are we saved by Grace through works or not? If you call 'faith' a 'work' then you must answer that question in the affirmative.

Calvinists see saving faith as a gift from God...you see faith as inherent in fallen man. Human,natural faith does not access that which is spiritual.