Do You regard Doctrine of Gifts Continuing/Ceasing as being "essential?"

[beameup]

Do you have scripture to support this since this seems contradict scripture as the gifts wrere for the church?

No definitive scripture, JMO. My conjecture is that the (Sign) Gifts were throughout the believing community up until the door was completely closed
on the Jews/Israel and the Dispensation of the Gentile Believers ("Church Age") was established, which would most likely be when the
Temple was DESTROYED and the Jews scattered abroad (70AD).

My meaning by "I tend to agree" with the Pastor's wife, is that these were "signs" spoken of by O.T. prophets (Jews).
***I am of course referring to the more controversial "extrovert" gifts like healings, miracles, prophetic utterances, tongues.

 

[freeatlast]

No definitive scripture, JMO. My conjecture is that the (Sign) Gifts were throughout the believing community up until the door was completely closed
on the Jews/Israel and the Dispensation of the Gentile Believers ("Church Age") was established, which would most likely be when the
Temple was DESTROYED and the Jews scattered abroad (70AD).

My meaning by "I tend to agree" with the Pastor's wife, is that these were "signs" spoken of by O.T. prophets (Jews).
***I am of course referring to the more controversial "extrovert" gifts like healings, miracles, prophetic utterances, tongues.

Brother If I am understanding you correctly I can tell you absolutely that this woman is wrong. Here is why;
1Cor. 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
Paul is speaking to gentiles who had the gifts, not just to Jews. The gifts were to be used for the church for edification, not for the Jews except one gift which scripture clearly says was given for one purpose and that was to condemn the unbelieving Jew and that was tongues.
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not
By the way the unbeliever is the Jew because this was prophesized in the Old testament.
In the law it is written, With [men of] other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

 

[beameup]

Brother If I am understanding you correctly I can tell you absolutely that this woman is wrong. Here is why;

There is more than one kind of "tongues". I believe she was referring to the gift of instantly knowing and speaking another language in order to preach the gospel. This occurred in the Second Chapter of Acts. I'm sure that she believes that that same gift will be given to Jews during the Tribulation so that they may preach the gospel to every "tribe, tongue and nation" before Jesus returns in Glory with his Saints ("Church", "Bride of Christ"). As well, I'm sure she feels that the gift of healings, miracles, prophetic utterances, etc. will be active again during the Tribulation.

As to all the gifts, like I said, it is my conjecture that they "ceased" at the destruction of the Temple, at which time, Israel was "cut off" until the "fullness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rapture) -Rom 11:25.

 

[freeatlast]

There is more than one kind of "tongues". I believe she was referring to the gift of instantly knowing and speaking another language in order to preach the gospel. This occurred in the Second Chapter of Acts. I'm sure that she believes that that same gift will be given to Jews during the Tribulation so that they may preach the gospel to every "tribe, tongue and nation" before Jesus returns in Glory with his Saints ("Church", "Bride of Christ"). As well, I'm sure she feels that the gift of healings, miracles, prophetic utterances, etc. will be active again during the Tribulation.

As to all the gifts, like I said, it is my conjecture that they "ceased" at the destruction of the Temple, at which time, Israel was "cut off" until the "fullness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rapture) -Rom 11:25.

I am sure she is sincere, but like I said, scripture please. More then one kind of tongues? Scripture please. All the gifts working during the tribulation. Scripture please. This is how cults and false doctrine gets started by believing rumors instead of relying on the word of God.

 

[beameup]

I am sure she is sincere, but like I said, scripture please. More then one kind of tongues? Scripture please. All the gifts working during the tribulation. Scripture please. This is how cults and false doctrine gets started by believing rumors instead of relying on the word of God.

To be honest, this is not a real "pressing" issue to me. I spent a lot of time around "Charismatics" for many years and saw a lot of COUNTERFEIT gifts.
As I now conjecture that the gifts ended with Israel being completely "cut-off" in 70AD then it is a "non-issue" for me as a Gentile Believer in the Church Age... it is "irrelevant".

Though I speak with the tongues of men and [tongues] of angels - 1 Cor 13:1a. Sounds like at least TWO kinds of tongues.

Some things the Word of God simply does not cover. This may be one of them.
You may just want to ask the Lord for "insight" into this issue and then form your own opinion.

Charity [LOVE] never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease 1 Cor 13:8a
Practice Agape and you can't go wrong.

 

[DHK]

To be honest, this is not a real "pressing" issue to me. I spent a lot of time around "Charismatics" for many years and saw a lot of COUNTERFEIT gifts.

Most of them are.

As I now conjecture that the gifts ended with Israel being completely "cut-off" in 70AD then it is a "non-issue" for me as a Gentile Believer in the Church Age... it is "irrelevant".

Though I speak with the tongues of men and [tongues] of angels - 1 Cor 13:1a. Sounds like at least TWO kinds of tongues.

The word "tongues" simply means "languages" and always refers to a real known language such as a foreign language. What could angels do? They could speak in any language God sent them to, and when they spoke they always spoke perfectly, with a good vocabulary, in good grammar. Notice when an angel came to Mary or to Joseph they spoke in the language they could understand and plainly so they could understand them easily. That is all it means to speak in the tongues of angels--to speak with clarity, good grammar, etc.

There is only one kind of tongue or language. It is a foreign language.

Some things the Word of God simply does not cover. This may be one of them.
You may just want to ask the Lord for "insight" into this issue and then form your own opinion.

The Bible does give a fair amount of knowledge on this subject.

Charity [LOVE] never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease 1 Cor 13:8a

Practice Agape and you can't go wrong.

Love is the only gift that will never cease. The other gifts mentioned in verse 8 have already ceased.

 

[beameup]

There is only one kind of tongue or language. It is a foreign language.

If that were the case then the Holy Spirit would not have wasted space differentiating between tongues of men and tongues of angels.
(How do angels communicate with each other?).

As far as sign gifts go, they were given by the H.S. to the Jewish believers in Jerusalem in the Book of Acts as a fulfillment of Prophecy.
If you believe that Israel is "finished" then you can claim that these gifts will never be again. I reject that, as I feel that Israel has
a destiny to fulfill which was not completed during the times of the 12 Apostles and will be fulfilled during the Tribulation.

Now, if God chose to give these same gifts to the Gentiles as a means to "provoke" them to jealousy (see 1 Cor 12), then I can understand that,
as God gave EVERY opportunity to Jews/Israel to complete their mission and usher in the Kingdom of God (Millennium) and they failed.
And so, Israel was eventually completely "cut-off" and the Gentiles were given the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[DHK]

If that were the case then the Holy Spirit would not have wasted space differentiating between tongues of men and tongues of angels.
(How do angels communicate with each other?).

Your point is moot and irrelevant.
Paul was making a hypothetical statement; a conjecture. He didn't say that there were angelic tongues. Neither did he say his body was going to be burned or that he was going to give all his money to the poor. All of those statements were hypotheticals. They start with "though" or "IF." It doesn't matter what you think on angelic tongues or even what Paul thought for that matter. The fact is that it is written as a hypothetical and therefore not factual. There are not two kinds of Biblical tongues. Only one. And that is when God gives a person the ability to speak in a language that they never learned before. That is what speaking in tongues is. If it were in operation today missionaries would not have to study the foreign language of the nation that they were called to. God would just give them the gift of tongues or languages (of that particular nation).

As far as sign gifts go, they were given by the H.S. to the Jewish believers in Jerusalem in the Book of Acts as a fulfillment of Prophecy.

In 1Cor.14:21,22, Paul states that the gift of speaking in tongues was given as a sign to the unbelieving Jew. It is a quote from Isaiah 28:11,12. It would be a terrible thing for the proud nation of Israel to hear the message of God from Gentiles and in a language other than the sacred language of Hebrew. To them this would be judgment enough. But it would happen. And if they didn't take heed to the message further and greater judgment would come. They didn't listen. Greater judgment did come. The temple was destroyed in 70 A.D and the Jews were scattered.

If you believe that Israel is "finished" then you can claim that these gifts will never be again. I reject that, as I feel that Israel has
a destiny to fulfill which was not completed during the times of the 12 Apostles and will be fulfilled during the Tribulation.

There will be two prophets during the time of The Tribulation to whom God will give great power. The rest of the Jews will suffer great tribulation until the end when Christ will come for them, and they shall look to Him and be saved as a nation.

Now, if God chose to give these same gifts to the Gentiles as a means to "provoke" them to jealousy (see 1 Cor 12), then I can understand that, as God gave EVERY opportunity to Jews/Israel to complete their mission and usher in the Kingdom of God (Millennium) and they failed. And so, Israel was eventually completely "cut-off" and the Gentiles were given the Kingdom of Heaven.

The phrase "provoke them to jealously" is not found in 1Cor.12; it is found in Romans 11

Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see. Bow down their back always." I ask then, did they stumble that they might fall? May it never be! But by their fall salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? (Romans 11:10-12)

And the context has nothing to do with spiritual gifts.

 

[freeatlast]

To be honest, this is not a real "pressing" issue to me. I spent a lot of time around "Charismatics" for many years and saw a lot of COUNTERFEIT gifts.
As I now conjecture that the gifts ended with Israel being completely "cut-off" in 70AD then it is a "non-issue" for me as a Gentile Believer in the Church Age... it is "irrelevant".

Though I speak with the tongues of men and [tongues] of angels - 1 Cor 13:1a. Sounds like at least TWO kinds of tongues.

Some things the Word of God simply does not cover. This may be one of them.
You may just want to ask the Lord for "insight" into this issue and then form your own opinion.

Charity [LOVE] never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease 1 Cor 13:8a
Practice Agape and you can't go wrong.

[SIZE=+0]No there are not two kinds of tongues at least from God. Paul was using hyperbole to make a point when speaking about Angel language. If you just think about it what would be the purpose to be able to speak angel language? When they apear to us they speak ours. Then and now people would think you were babbling and without purpose except self exhortation and no gift was given for that purpose.

You must keep in mind that everything in the book of 1Corinthians is a rebuke, not a commendation. They were doing the same exact thing then that we see many today in the tongues movement who are puffed up in an experience that is not even from God. Like today they had another tongue, but it was a false gift not from God. That is why Paul gave the restrictions he did to weed out the true from the false. The true gift was one that the person speaking understood himself. It says let him who speaks in an (unknown) tongue pray that he may interpret. If they were obedient that would put an end to the false gift as they would never get any interpretation having not to speak that way and the same would be true today, but the tongue movement members are too proud to obey. The false gift was not understood by he speaker.

Also there was the misuse of the true gift and that also is dealt with, but the true gift has passed away.
As to giving the gifts to the Jew that was only because there was not church and at Pentecost it was only tongues and nothing else. There is no scriptural reason to believe that the gifts will return during the tribulation and given to the Jew unless there is some passage that suggests such. Like I said this is how cults and false doctrine gets started by just forming beliefs out of thin air.

One last thing. Israel has not been completely "cut-off" There are some Jews coming to Christ even today. The nation will be grafted back in and about one third of them, a remnant, will be saved during the tribulation period.
[/SIZE]

 

[JesusFan]

Most of them are

.


That is why it is SO important to be spirituall discerning, as we must know the bible and use it as THE infallible guide to intreprete ALL spiritual activity through as a filter!

MUCH of modern day 'charisma" IS indeed from fale teachings/cultic/false theologies...

Counterfeiting of the "real Gifts"

That is why important to know the bible and the prompting of the HS, as he will steer us waway from wrong stuff IF we abide and stay in the Word!

The word "tongues" simply means "languages" and always refers to a real known language such as a foreign language. What could angels do? They could speak in any language God sent them to, and when they spoke they always spoke perfectly, with a good vocabulary, in good grammar. Notice when an angel came to Mary or to Joseph they spoke in the language they could understand and plainly so they could understand them easily. That is all it means to speak in the tongues of angels--to speak with clarity, good grammar, etc.

There is only one kind of tongue or language. It is a foreign language.

The Bible does give a fair amount of knowledge on this subject.

Love is the only gift that will never cease. The other gifts mentioned in verse 8 have already ceased.

Again, DHK, that is YOUR interpretation on this subject!

MANY , even in Baptist churches, would NOT see the Gifts as ceasing when the canon of scriptures closed, but based upon the grammer and contex, would tend to see as referring to the time of the Second Coming!

 

[Aaron]

Will it be a dividing issue, or seen as a secondary issue among the bethren?

There is nothing in the Scriptures that is non-essential to doctrine and instruction in righteousness. So, yes, what one group believes about the gifts is a dividing line.

 

[JesusFan]

There is nothing in the Scriptures that is non-essential to doctrine and instruction in righteousness. So, yes, what one group believes about the gifts is a dividing line.

So you make a dividing line over a doctrine that per Bible falls under a "disputable" area?

As whether one holds to a cease/contiuing stance does NOT reflect on majotr doctrines of the faith "Once and for all delivered to the saints?"

You would have the Body of Chjrsit divide over this issue, when we are ALL one in Jesus, same Lord/baptism?

 

[Aaron]

So you make a dividing line over a doctrine that per Bible falls under a "disputable" area?

Is it disputable? If one's doctrine concerning the administration, operation and especially the manifestation of the gifts is fallacious, his worship is out of order.

You would have the Body of Chjrsit divide over this issue, when we are ALL one in Jesus, same Lord/baptism?

You would persist in an activity that divides the Body of Christ? You have asserted the evidence for your position is "disputable." Therefore you cannot be certain of it. How can it then be of faith? And you accuse those who oppose it of being divisive? Go home and exercise your "gifts" in your closet, and you will find me very accommodating.

 

[DHK]

Again, DHK, that is YOUR interpretation on this subject!

MANY , even in Baptist churches, would NOT see the Gifts as ceasing when the canon of scriptures closed, but based upon the grammer and contex, would tend to see as referring to the time of the Second Coming!

What is my interpretation?
You never even quoted me.
Sorry I can't answer your post until you learn to use the quote function, otherwise you are simply mis-quoting me.

 

[JesusFan]

What is my interpretation?
You never even quoted me.
Sorry I can't answer your post until you learn to use the quote function, otherwise you are simply mis-quoting me.

That is why it is SO important to be spirituall discerning, as we must know the bible and use it as THE infallible guide to intreprete ALL spiritual activity through as a filter!

MUCH of modern day 'charisma" IS indeed from fale teachings/cultic/false theologies...

Counterfeiting of the "real Gifts"

That is why important to know the bible and the prompting of the HS, as he will steer us waway from wrong stuff IF we abide and stay in the Word!



Again, DHK, this is YOUR interpretation on this subject!

MANY , even in Baptist churches, would NOT see the Gifts as ceasing when the canon of scriptures closed, but based upon the grammer and contex, would tend to see as referring to the time of the Second Coming!

 

[JesusFan]

Is it disputable? If one's doctrine concerning the administration, operation and especially the manifestation of the gifts is fallacious, his worship is out of order.

What if its under the control and administration of the Holy Spirit though?

You would persist in an activity that divides the Body of Christ? You have asserted the evidence for your position is "disputable." Therefore you cannot be certain of it. How can it then be of faith? And you accuse those who oppose it of being divisive? Go home and exercise your "gifts" in your closet, and you will find me very accommodating.

ONLY reason that it divides among bethren is that we are NOT seeing that this is a doctrine that is NOT a core onem that we CAN hold to opposite views on it and still be "in the faith"

Also, BIG problem is that we in the Church have 2 extreme non biblical views in this area!
One says that God does NOTHING today apart from the Bible today ALL other actrtivity must be from satan or humans

Other says we MUST operate in all the Gifts just as Apostles did in Acts, and that God gives fresh revelation, miracle etc daily basis!

BOTh are wrong, in that God primary is indeed the Bible, but still can work and move among us as He so pleases, and it will always agree with the written word!

And my baptist Church does NOT "practice" the Gifts, just states that one can hold differing opinions on this issue and still remain a member in good standing, not issue to split over!

It might amuse you to find out that I ONLY pray while in my "prayer closet" so we should still "be friends!"

 

[DHK]

That is why it is SO important to be spirituall discerning, as we must know the bible and use it as THE infallible guide to intreprete ALL spiritual activity through as a filter!

This is your quote.
There is much error in the Charismatic movement. Spiritual discerning is not a feeling. It is knowing your Bible well and being able to compare Scripture with Scripture and Scripture with false doctrine. A woman was amazed at a banker who had an uncanny ability to immediately pick out counterfeit bills no matter what the denomination of the bill was. She asked how she was able to do it. Did she have to take a course and study all the methods of counterfeiting? No, she replied. I make myself fully and thoroughly acquainted with just one--the original. If anything deviates from the real bill then I know it is counterfeit.
The same is true in Christianity. If anything deviates from the Word of God it is false. Know your Bible well enough to discern that. The Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice. It becomes our sole authority.

I know, using my Bible as my guide, that the sign gifts are not for today.

MUCH of modern day 'charisma" IS indeed from fale teachings/cultic/false theologies...

And therefore should be avoided like the plague.

Counterfeiting of the "real Gifts"

Why do I need a counterfeit when I have the real thing--Christ. He is all I need. He reveals himself to me in His Word, which was the purpose of many of the signs--to give revelation.

That is why important to know the bible and the prompting of the HS, as he will steer us waway from wrong stuff IF we abide and stay in the Word!

Why even go near it in the first place. If a person has a drinking problem and needs to go home, will you give him directions that takes him right past the bars and nighclubs, or find a different route for him to go?

Again, DHK, this is YOUR interpretation on this subject!

There is only one interpretation: God's interpretation, and we must do our best to find out what God is telling us in His word.

MANY , even in Baptist churches, would NOT see the Gifts as ceasing when the canon of scriptures closed, but based upon the grammer and contex, would tend to see as referring to the time of the Second Coming!

And many of them are wrong. They will give account of themselves before God.

 

[JesusFan]

This is your quote.

There is much error in the Charismatic movement. Spiritual discerning is not a feeling. It is knowing your Bible well and being able to compare Scripture with Scripture and Scripture with false doctrine. A woman was amazed at a banker who had an uncanny ability to immediately pick out counterfeit bills no matter what the denomination of the bill was. She asked how she was able to do it. Did she have to take a course and study all the methods of counterfeiting? No, she replied. I make myself fully and thoroughly acquainted with just one--the original. If anything deviates from the real bill then I know it is counterfeit.
The same is true in Christianity. If anything deviates from the Word of God it is false. Know your Bible well enough to discern that. The Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice. It becomes our sole authority.

Honestly DHK, don't think we are that far apart on this! Agree with everything that you wrote in this quote!
Bible is indeed the ONLY sure word from God, is the standard of all faith and practice!

I know, using my Bible as my guide, that the sign gifts are not for today.

Would say the Gifts are NOT used by God to reveal additional revelation/doctrines, just that the HS can still propmt/direct/guide by His small still voice even today...

And the Lored still can do Miracles and healings even today, but is as He pleases, as surgery can be from God just as much as a divine healing!



And therefore should be avoided like the plague.

Why do I need a counterfeit when I have the real thing--Christ. He is all I need. He reveals himself to me in His Word, which was the purpose of many of the signs--to give revelation.

We both have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, can we limit Him to what he can do ina nd through us, IF it is in will of God?



Why even go near it in the first place. If a person has a drinking problem and needs to go home, will you give him directions that takes him right past the bars and nighclubs, or find a different route for him to go?

There is only one interpretation: God's interpretation, and we must do our best to find out what God is telling us in His word.

be careful here... You cannot say with full assurance that its your understanding is that of God in this area 100 %, that would be like the "Papacy"

And many of them are wrong. They will give account of themselves before God.

Just make sure to "judge surely", as by same measure God will judge you in this area as you are judging some of us view these matters!

 

[DHK]

Would say the Gifts are NOT used by God to reveal additional revelation/doctrines, just that the HS can still propmt/direct/guide by His small still voice even today...

True, but the confusion comes when a person calls “that still small voice” a gift of the Holy Spirit when it is not.

And the Lored still can do Miracles and healings even today, but is as He pleases, as surgery can be from God just as much as a divine healing!

I never denied that the Lord either couldn’t or wouldn’t.

We both have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, can we limit Him to what he can do ina nd through us, IF it is in will of God?

That is how both Jesus and James tells us to pray: “according to his wil.”

be careful here... You cannot say with full assurance that its your understanding is that of God in this area 100 %, that would be like the "Papacy"

If I couldn’t I wouldn’t preach it.
If there are things that are not fully revealed to us in the Word, I don’t speculate.
I am honest with people. The Bible, for example, tells us that we cannot know the date of the Lord’s coming. We cannot be “date-setters.” I wouldn’t even try. Some might try, but that is just speculation. However, there are some things (most things), that we can be very dogmatic about.

 

[freeatlast]

Again, DHK, that is YOUR interpretation on this subject!

MANY , even in Baptist churches, would NOT see the Gifts as ceasing when the canon of scriptures closed, but based upon the grammer and contex, would tend to see as referring to the time of the Second Coming!

The problem is none of those so called Baptist churches has any of the miraculous gifts operating in their mist or knows of any place they are operating so they are simply rebelling against all truth if they hold that view.
They are in fact willfully self deceived if they believe that.