Do You regard Doctrine of Gifts Continuing/Ceasing as being "essential?"

[JesusFan]

Will it be a dividing issue, or seen as a secondary issue among the bethren?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Will it be a dividing issue, or seen as a secondary issue among the bethren?

Good question: When I look at George Whitefields testimony, he conceded that the Spirit did not visit every person or at all times and in the same degree. He believed though that everyone should labor to attain, yet it was not of absolute necessity to the being of a Christian (those are his own words)

That is what Whitefield taught regularly in his ministry. In other words, you can be a Christian without any additional blessings from the HS, but you should seek it and labor to attain it.

Now from my own personal prospective, the HS is the author of the Scriptures.... so I tend to focus in on that ...but I am now thinkin that I need to be praying for attaining more..... a visitation perhaps.

 

[webdog]

To me it's a dividing issue if the view of gifts is not a biblical one. Someone standing up in the middle of a church service talking pig latin, or being thrown to the ground by a guy in a white suit for "healing" is what I mean.

 

[JesusFan]

[

CODE]

To me it's a dividing issue if the view of gifts is not a biblical one. Someone standing up in the middle of a church service talking pig latin, or being thrown to the ground by a guy in a white suit for "healing" is what I mean.[/QUOTE[/CODE]]

I am a "Baptacostalist" and agree with you MUCH of what happens in those circles are heretical, or else buffoonery!

WoF/gods manifest/health and wealth/etc ARE NOT from God, either money grubbing schemes, Satanic, or both!

Would say good to read the book by DR wayne Grudem, about differing views on the Spiritual Gifts for today!

 

[JesusFan]

Good question: When I look at George Whitefields testimony, he conceded that the Spirit did not visit every person or at all times and in the same degree. He believed though that everyone should labor to attain, yet it was not of absolute necessity to the being of a Christian (those are his own words)

That is what Whitefield taught regularly in his ministry. In other words, you can be a Christian without any additional blessings from the HS, but you should seek it and labor to attain it.

Now from my own personal prospective, the HS is the author of the Scriptures.... so I tend to focus in on that ...but I am now thinkin that I need to be praying for attaining more..... a visitation perhaps.[/QUOTE

]

EACH believer in jesus has already received a spiritual gift from the HS, as He so wills it, for the benefit of the local Body!

just seek after Jesus, draw closer walk with Him, and by maturing in Him the HS will be able to use whatever gift you might have through you!

 

[Tom Bryant]

Good question: When I look at George Whitefields testimony, he conceded that the Spirit did not visit every person or at all times and in the same degree. He believed though that everyone should labor to attain, yet it was not of absolute necessity to the being of a Christian (those are his own words)

That is what Whitefield taught regularly in his ministry. In other words, you can be a Christian without any additional blessings from the HS, but you should seek it and labor to attain it.


Quote:

I have some questions:

Where in Scripture is additional visitation and anointing? I take it that this is different from the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that all believers have.

Is it some kind of 2nd blessing, as they used to call it?

Salvation is by grace through faith, but this anointing is the result of seeking and laboring for it?

 

[freeatlast]

Good question: When I look at George Whitefields testimony, he conceded that the Spirit did not visit every person or at all times and in the same degree. He believed though that everyone should labor to attain, yet it was not of absolute necessity to the being of a Christian (those are his own words)

That is what Whitefield taught regularly in his ministry. In other words, you can be a Christian without any additional blessings from the HS, but you should seek it and labor to attain it.

Now from my own personal prospective, the HS is the author of the Scriptures.... so I tend to focus in on that ...but I am now thinkin that I need to be praying for attaining more..... a visitation perhaps.

The problem here is that at no time are we ever told in scripture to seek or labor for the Spirit or any gift on a personal bases. The next thing wrong with this that no gift was ever intended for personal use yet today those who claim to have certain gifts seem to fall in the same condemnation as the Corinthians did, pride and self abasement.


The gifts of the Spirit brought absolutely no special blessing or euphoria to the believer. Anytime that happens because of a claimed gift it is self or demonically imposed. The gifts were given to serve the church, not the one bearing it. Today there are certain of the gifts still present. If not then how does one lead the church without prophesy or rule without wisdom and so on. However things like the gift of healing, tongues, miracles, are not present in the church except on rare occasions as the Lord determines, but even then they come and then leave after they have served their purpose. By rare I mean extremely rare almost to not happening.


This thing today of seeking for gifts to experience a blessing is not of the Lord. The claim of a second blessing is not of God, but personal sin and pride from all who claim such. It is either of the flesh or the devil, but not of the Lord. Any person who claims to have a spiritual gift and uses it for any personal use does not have a gift from God. No person who had the gift of healing ever healed themself. No person who has the gift of giving ever uses it to give to themself and it is the same with every gift of the spirit. People who claim that to pray in the spirit is praying in some unknown tongue (gibberish that even they do not understand) have been deceived, not blessed.

Every gift that is given has to line up with the Lord as He certainly had them all without measure and there is never any evidence that He ever prayed in an unknown tongue (gibberish). Anyone who claims differently does not have a spiritual gift from God. They may do it and some fake it and for others it may be real, but real does not mean is not from God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have some questions:

Where in Scripture is additional visitation and anointing? I take it that this is different from the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that all believers have.

Is it some kind of 2nd blessing, as they used to call it?

Salvation is by grace through faith, but this anointing is the result of seeking and laboring for it?

I dont know, Ive never gone to a church that does this....should ask JF....

Oh hey, ....maybe Luke 11:13, Ask & you shall receive.... how much more shall the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Maybe acts 8: 15-16

But since your the Theologian, perhaps you should research the history of the church .... like what happened in the case of the great revivals? Or in the case of many individuals of whom we can read? I just mentioned George Whitefield.... but also Edwards, wesley, Finney & Moody. Even Aquinas & Pascal.

Since Im of the Welsh, I can also refer you to Howell Harris & Dan Rowlands.

I will say that I dont recall any one of them receiving any blessing as a result of laying on of hands or anybody bringing it forth, for what thats worth.

So but you tell me, in these revivals that have reported a spiritual uplifting.... hows it happen?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The problem here is that at no time are we ever told in scripture to seek or labor for the Spirit or any gift on a personal bases. The next thing wrong with this that no gift was ever intended for personal use yet today those who claim to have certain gifts seem to fall in the same condemnation as the Corinthians did, pride and self abasement.


The gifts of the Spirit brought absolutely no special blessing or euphoria to the believer. Anytime that happens because of a claimed gift it is self or demonically imposed. The gifts were given to serve the church, not the one bearing it. Today there are certain of the gifts still present. If not then how does one lead the church without prophesy or rule without wisdom and so on. However things like the gift of healing, tongues, miracles, are not present in the church except on rare occasions as the Lord determines, but even then they come and then leave after they have served their purpose. By rare I mean extremely rare almost to not happening.


This thing today of seeking for gifts to experience a blessing is not of the Lord. The claim of a second blessing is not of God, but personal sin and pride from all who claim such. It is either of the flesh or the devil, but not of the Lord. Any person who claims to have a spiritual gift and uses it for any personal use does not have a gift from God. No person who had the gift of healing ever healed themself. No person who has the gift of giving ever uses it to give to themself and it is the same with every gift of the spirit. People who claim that to pray in the spirit is praying in some unknown tongue (gibberish that even they do not understand) have been deceived, not blessed.

Every gift that is given has to line up with the Lord as He certainly had them all without measure and there is never any evidence that He ever prayed in an unknown tongue (gibberish). Anyone who claims differently does not have a spiritual gift from God. They may do it and some fake it and for others it may be real, but real does not mean is not from God.

All I hear is fear....per your understanding, revivals would of never happened. Opinions dont make it true or false....just opinion.

 

[Tom Bryant]

I dont know, Ive never gone to a church that does this....should ask JF....

Oh hey, ....maybe Luke 11:13, Ask & you shall receive.... how much more shall the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Maybe acts 8: 15-16

But since your the Theologian, perhaps you should research the history of the church .... like what happened in the case of the great revivals? Or in the case of many individuals of whom we can read? I just mentioned George Whitefield.... but also Edwards, wesley, Finney & Moody. Even Aquinas & Pascal.

Since Im of the Welsh, I can also refer you to Howell Harris & Dan Rowlands.

I will say that I dont recall any one of them receiving any blessing as a result of laying on of hands or anybody bringing it forth, for what thats worth.

So but you tell me, in these revivals that have reported a spiritual uplifting.... hows it happen?

I'd really rather use the Bible to decipher experiences rather than the other way around.

In terms of Luke 11:13 - God has given the Holy Spirit to all believers, already. He is given at salvation.

I would contend that using a transitional book like Acts is not exactly the best way to establish doctrine. For example, do we need to call the Apostles to come down from Jerusalem, or heaven, now, to lay hands and pray for people to receive the Holy Spirit? Or do gentiles receive the Holy Spirit now at salvation.

Now if you're talking about a fresh filling of the Holy Spirit, I absolutely agree. But does this filling of the Holy Spirit happen once. In Acts, the early church continually experience the Holy Spirit's infilling. And that is also established by Ephesians 5 to continually be filled with the Holy Spirit.

I would contend that the amazing revivals and awakenings occur because believers are filled with the Holy Spirit. But you and other seem to be asking for some sort of experience that propels you into some kind of spiritual hyper-drive.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'd really rather use the Bible to decipher experiences rather than the other way around.

In terms of Luke 11:13 - God has given the Holy Spirit to all believers, already. He is given at salvation.

I would contend that using a transitional book like Acts is not exactly the best way to establish doctrine. For example, do we need to call the Apostles to come down from Jerusalem, or heaven, now, to lay hands and pray for people to receive the Holy Spirit? Or do gentiles receive the Holy Spirit now at salvation.

Now if you're talking about a fresh filling of the Holy Spirit, I absolutely agree. But does this filling of the Holy Spirit happen once. In Acts, the early church continually experience the Holy Spirit's infilling. And that is also established by Ephesians 5 to continually be filled with the Holy Spirit.

I would contend that the amazing revivals and awakenings occur because believers are filled with the Holy Spirit. But you and other seem to be asking for some sort of experience that propels you into some kind of spiritual hyper-drive.

Well the last 16 months have already propelled me into a spiritual hyper-drive so ...all the books I read are Christ related, my wife has noticed it, I actually read scripture vs watching a ball game, I make it a point to speak God each day & most importantly I'm actually on my knees & praying....you would have never saw this 2 yrs ago....but yes Id like more & then probably more & then more. Any rocket fuel laying around?

 

[Tom Bryant]

Well the last 16 months have already propelled me into a spiritual hyper-drive so ...all the books I read are Christ related, my wife has noticed it, I actually read scripture vs watching a ball game, I make it a point to speak God each day & most importantly I'm actually on my knees & praying....you would have never saw this 2 yrs ago....but yes Id like more & then probably more & then more. Any rocket fuel laying around?

I can see that in you. I can see the real heartfelt desire to be more like Jesus Christ. But the only rocket fuel I know comes from continualy doing the things you are now doing.

I just reject the idea that there is some sort of event or experience that gives us that rocket fuel. If it was why didn't Paul or Peter talk about it? Instead they talked about the ongoing and increasing control of the Holy Spirit.

 

[freeatlast]

All I hear is fear....per your understanding, revivals would of never happened. Opinions dont make it true or false....just opinion.

What is to be afraid of. I am not falsely claiming to have a gift I do not have like some do.

 

[freeatlast]

Well the last 16 months have already propelled me into a spiritual hyper-drive so ...all the books I read are Christ related, my wife has noticed it, I actually read scripture vs watching a ball game, I make it a point to speak God each day & most importantly I'm actually on my knees & praying....you would have never saw this 2 yrs ago....but yes Id like more & then probably more & then more. Any rocket fuel laying around?

I am gald that you are starting to grow spiritually, but You can be sure it is not because of any gift. The Corinthians came behind in no gifts and they were carnal in their actions.

 

[Iconoclast]

Will it be a dividing issue, or seen as a secondary issue among the bethren?

This is clearly a dividing issue. It is truth ,or error,Has God sealed his word or not.

http://www.the-highway.com/cessation_White.html

http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj2h.pdf

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Back to the OP.....here is my origional commentary:

the HS is the author of the Scriptures.... so I tend to focus in on that

 

[JesusFan]

I have some questions:

Where in Scripture is additional visitation and anointing? I take it that this is different from the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that all believers have.

That is poor terminology that some use, and the biblical concept is indeed ALL are spirit baptised at new birth by the HS...
SOME hold that is a "special" enabling by HS for pastors/preaching etc, but I hold that ALL have same amount of the HS due to being saved!

Is it some kind of 2nd blessing, as they used to call it?

That would be the "second act of Grace/Baptism in Holy Ghost" which is NOT biblical, as they fail to see ALL receive fulness of HS , in Christ receive ALL spiritual blessings

Its just that there ISa difference between HS indwelling and infilling, they tend to confuse the 2, as they see ONLY "spirit baptised" believrs having "fulness" truth is ALL can have that, called infilling of HS...

Salvation is by grace through faith, but this anointing is the result of seeking and laboring for it?

Bad terminology, misunderstanding of the HS and His function/role in a believer, as we ALL have Him same measure

ALL have gifts, no need to labor, just seek wisdom from God in what He decided to grace us with!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Sumbacka, Bozomumbi, Tinactin antifungal , Boogie Boogie Boogie....... Guess which ones I gots....:smilewinkgrin::laugh::tongue3:

 

[JesusFan]

Sumbacka, Bozomumbi, Tinactin antifungal , Boogie Boogie Boogie....... Guess which ones I gots....:smilewinkgrin::laugh::tongue3:

Ones that say "Go Lions/Tigers/Red Wings/Pistons!"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ones that say "Go Lions/Tigers/Red Wings/Pistons!"

not hardly....but Tough Actin Tinactin will cure my athlete's foot. (Lions....Hehehe) you are a comedian!