Do You regard Doctrine of Gifts Continuing/Ceasing as being "essential?"

[DHK]

There is no doubt in my mind that the sign gifts of the first century have ceased. They were supernatural in nature, revelatory in purpose, and had a definite sign for both apostolic authenticity and as a sign to the unbelieving Jew. We don't need these signs today.

1. We have the completed word of God. It is the Word of God that gives us the complete revelation of Jesus Christ. Everything that we need to know about him is contained within the pages of Scripture. Everything outside of Scripture is moot and irrelevant. Thus the preacher must expound only that which is in Scripture.

2. We are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit--a sad deficit in many Christians. As alcohol takes control of the unbeliever and makes him do things that he otherwise would not do in his natural state, so the Holy Spirit should take control of the believer and cause him to do things (preach on street corners if necessary) that he would not do in his natural state.

 

[freeatlast]

There is no doubt in my mind that the sign gifts of the first century have ceased. They were supernatural in nature, revelatory in purpose, and had a definite sign for both apostolic authenticity and as a sign to the unbelieving Jew. We don't need these signs today.

1. We have the completed word of God. It is the Word of God that gives us the complete revelation of Jesus Christ. Everything that we need to know about him is contained within the pages of Scripture. Everything outside of Scripture is moot and irrelevant. Thus the preacher must expound only that which is in Scripture.

2. We are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit--a sad deficit in many Christians. As alcohol takes control of the unbeliever and makes him do things that he otherwise would not do in his natural state, so the Holy Spirit should take control of the believer and cause him to do things (preach on street corners if necessary) that he would not do in his natural state.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

:thumbs::thumbs:

Watch out for that vodka (Esp the Polish kind:thumbs.....don't call it spirits for nothing!:laugh:

 

[JesusFan]

There is no doubt in my mind that the sign gifts of the

first century have ceased. They were supernatural in nature, revelatory in purpose, and had a definite sign for both apostolic authenticity and as a sign to the unbelieving Jew. We don't need these signs today

.

that is how they wer oroginally at start of the Church, as they were used to confirm testimony of Apostles concerning jesus, and were "signs/tongues" to isreal, as per OT prophecies...

As said by writer to the Hebrews Himself... BUT

There did seem to be a transistion to how they were meant to function among local Body. per Hebrews, as no longer to be revelatory in nature, but still were to be seen as HS speaking to His people to guide/exhort/edify/encourage!
Bible is THE revelation from God to man, and Jesus is also, but the HS still has per Bible spiritual Gifts of His to distribribute amonf the bethren as He so wills!

1. We have the completed word of God. It is the Word of God that gives us the complete revelation of Jesus Christ. Everything that we need to know about him is contained within the pages of Scripture. Everything outside of Scripture is moot and irrelevant. Thus the preacher must expound only that which is in Scripture.

ONLY the aberrent heretical groups like WoF/prosperity/little gods deny this, most Evangelical charasmatics, especuially among baptists, would agree with you, as per Dr wayne Grudem for example!

2. We are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit--a sad deficit in many Christians. As alcohol takes control of the unbeliever and makes him do things that he otherwise would not do in his natural state, so the Holy Spirit should take control of the believer and cause him to do things (preach on street corners if necessary) that he would not do in his natural state.[/QUOTE

]

Again , Evangelical "batacostalists" like myself adhere and agree to All baptist/Christian essential core doctrines, and would believe in "no" second act of Grace, we ALL have same amount of HS filling us, Baptised by him to Body of Christ, and up to us to daily walk in His presense and power!

 

[webdog]

There is no doubt in my mind that the sign gifts of the first century have ceased. They were supernatural in nature, revelatory in purpose, and had a definite sign for both apostolic authenticity and as a sign to the unbelieving Jew. We don't need these signs today.

1. We have the completed word of God. It is the Word of God that gives us the complete revelation of Jesus Christ. Everything that we need to know about him is contained within the pages of Scripture. Everything outside of Scripture is moot and irrelevant. Thus the preacher must expound only that which is in Scripture.

2. We are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit--a sad deficit in many Christians. As alcohol takes control of the unbeliever and makes him do things that he otherwise would not do in his natural state, so the Holy Spirit should take control of the believer and cause him to do things (preach on street corners if necessary) that he would not do in his natural state.

I agree that gifts as a "sign" to the jews has ceased...but I believe God can still gift a believer with such gifts for His purposes still today.

 

[JesusFan]

I agree that gifts as a "sign" to the jews has ceased...but I believe God can still gift a believer with such gifts for His purposes still today.

As long as we ALL agree they are NOT revelatory in nature today, as canon was indeed closed, and must be done in strict adherence to biblical guidelines!

 

[webdog]

As long as we ALL agree they are NOT revelatory in nature today, as canon was indeed closed, and must be done in strict adherence to biblical guidelines!

It would depend on how one defines "biblical guideline". That can mean anything.

 

[DHK]

I agree that gifts as a "sign" to the jews has ceased...but I believe God can still gift a believer with such gifts for His purposes still today.

The only sign that was specifically said to be a sign to the Jews was tongues (1Cor.14:21,22). Other "sign" gifts were for the purpose of revelation given and for apostolic authority. They also are not for today.

The gift of healing has ceased. If it were for today we would find faith healers going up and down the corridors of hospitals healing ALL, without exception, those that are there, as Peter did in Acts 5:16. That is a demonstration of the gift of healing. He healed ALL that came to him (no one excluded) from all the cities round about Jerusalem.

The gift of revelatory knowledge and of prophecy, both mentioned in 1Cor.13:8, have ceased. Why? The Canon of Scripture is closed. We don't have an open canon. Like the Charismatics we don't have to go searching for all "thus saith the Lords" spoken all over the world and collate them into a book of Scripture. Their Scripture is incomplete until they do. God's Word is scattered every time someone has a Word of prophecy. They believe it is truly from God and therefore inspired. It was in the first century because the NT was incomplete and God gave them this gift to make up for the incompleteness of the Bible. But the Bible also said it would end. And it has.

The gift of miracles. We don't have people going around performing miracles. Only the apostles could do that. It was to authenticate them.

Not all gift are for today. Perhaps the gift of administration is for today, but not all gifts are for today.

 

[webdog]

The only sign that was specifically said to be a sign to the Jews was tongues (1Cor.14:21,22). Other "sign" gifts were for the purpose of revelation given and for apostolic authority. They also are not for today.

I believe if God wanted me to share the Gospel with someone who didn't speak english in their own language He would.

The gift of healing has ceased. If it were for today we would find faith healers going up and down the corridors of hospitals healing ALL, without exception, those that are there, as Peter did in Acts 5:16. That is a demonstration of the gift of healing. He healed ALL that came to him (no one excluded) from all the cities round about Jerusalem.

I don't know...I've seen Benny Hinn do some pretty amazing things in his little white suit

The gift of revelatory knowledge and of prophecy, both mentioned in 1Cor.13:8, have ceased.

I believe these gifts are alive and well. Being able to tell others what God is saying through His Word is prophecy in the NT.

 

[DHK]

I believe if God wanted me to share the Gospel with someone who didn't speak english in their own language He would.

God can do anything he desires, but he doesn't go against his Word.
William Carey translated the Bible or parts of the Bible into 44 different languages, yet God never gave him the gift of tongues. You seem to think that God magically will give the individual in this generation "the easy way out." It doesn't work that way. I went to a foreign land: learned one language and became familiar with another. Why didn't God just give me the gift of languages instead? It is not his will. He doesn't work that way. Ask the hundreds of missionaries that pass your way if they have to learn the language if they go to a non-English speaking country, or if God gives them the gift of tongues. I think you know what the answer will be.

I believe these gifts are alive and well. Being able to tell others what God is saying through His Word is prophecy in the NT.

That is not the GIFT of prophecy. The gift of prophecy was a supernatural gift wherein God gave supernatural revelation (NT revelation, not yet written) to the individual for the edification of the church. We have a closed canon. That gift has ceased for obvious reasons.

 

[webdog]

God can do anything he desires, but he doesn't go against his Word.
William Carey translated the Bible or parts of the Bible into 44 different languages, yet God never gave him the gift of tongues. You seem to think that God magically will give the individual in this generation "the easy way out." It doesn't work that way. I went to a foreign land: learned one language and became familiar with another. Why didn't God just give me the gift of languages instead? It is not his will. He doesn't work that way. Ask the hundreds of missionaries that pass your way if they have to learn the language if they go to a non-English speaking country, or if God gives them the gift of tongues. I think you know what the answer will be.

I'm not talking about the normative approach of learning a language, and I think you know that. You seem to really limit what God can and does do while claiming to know His will. Good luck with that...

That is not the GIFT of prophecy. The gift of prophecy was a supernatural gift wherein God gave supernatural revelation (NT revelation, not yet written) to the individual for the edification of the church. We have a closed canon. That gift has ceased for obvious reasons.

Many Bible believing Christian theologians disagree with you.

 

[DHK]

I'm not talking about the normative approach of learning a language, and I think you know that. You seem to really limit what God can and does do while claiming to know His will. Good luck with that...

Those who study the Word of God can know his Word. It is not luck. I don't believe in luck. The sign gifts have ceased. That is final. The Bible is very clear on that. Why go against the very revelation of God, much less all of history, and lack of current evidence. You can't even produce the evidence that these gifts are in existence today. Prove it. Show me where the gift of healing is in operation today. Show me where a faith healer can go up and down the corridors of a hospital and heal ALL that are sick. It doesn't happen anywhere in this world, because these gifts have ceased. You have no evidence that they exist.

Many Bible believing Christian theologians disagree with you.

And they are wrong. Where is their evidence? Show me the proof.

 

[JesusFan]

It would depend on how one defines "biblical guideline". That can mean anything.

I was speaking mainly of the specific guidelines to us in 1 Corinthians 12 governing operation of the gifts!

 

[webdog]

Those who study the Word of God can know his Word. It is not luck. I don't believe in luck.

It was figurative speech

The sign gifts have ceased. That is final. The Bible is very clear on that.

Obviously it's not as clear as you claim.

You can't even produce the evidence that these gifts are in existence today. Prove it. Show me where the gift of healing is in operation today. Show me where a faith healer can go up and down the corridors of a hospital and heal ALL that are sick. It doesn't happen anywhere in this world, because these gifts have ceased. You have no evidence that they exist.

We just had a missionary who we support speak a few weeks ago. He told us that when he was in Africa a couple months back a woman and her deaf daughter came to see what the "white people" were doing. After some time they learned the little girl was deaf. Someone felt lead to pray over the little girl, and the girl can now hear.

I'm not talking about fake gift healers...I'm talking about where God guides, He provides.

And they are wrong. Where is their evidence? Show me the proof.

Do your own homework. Acts 2:17 "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

You are going to tell me this was a time before the closing of the canon and NOT literally the future?

 

[JesusFan]

It was figurative speech
Obviously it's not as clear as you claim.
We just had a missionary who we support speak a few weeks ago. He told us that when he was in Africa a couple months back a woman and her deaf daughter came to see what the "white people" were doing. After some time they learned the little girl was deaf. Someone felt lead to pray over the little girl, and the girl can now hear.

I'm not talking about fake gift healers...I'm talking about where God guides, He provides.
Do your own homework. Acts 2:17 "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

You are going to tell me this was a time before the closing of the canon and NOT literally the future?

Think that what passes as being "from the Lord" in groups holding to WoF/Health and wealth etc, teachers like Hinn, Copeland, etc ARE heeding "doctrines of demons" AntiChrist spirit, NOT HS!

They claim 'additional" reveltions, do fake healings, and have "erronous" doctrines!

Such as being little gods, jesus died as a sinner etc!

The ones from the Lord would be those who do NOT add revelations, have biblical doctrines!

 

[DHK]

Obviously it's not as clear as you claim.

Yes, it is very clear for those who have studied the doctrine out. Most people have not put the number of hours of study that I have into this particular subject. So I don't mind being very dogmatic on it.

We just had a missionary who we support speak a few weeks ago. He told us that when he was in Africa a couple months back a woman and her deaf daughter came to see what the "white people" were doing. After some time they learned the little girl was deaf. Someone felt lead to pray over the little girl, and the girl can now hear.

That has nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit. I would hope that in your lifetime you do see answers to prayer. I have seen many--some of them just like the one you described. But I don't go around claiming to be a "faith-healer" or having the gift of healing. One person being healed in answer to prayer is not the equivalent of having the gift of healing.

There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. (Acts 5:16)
--This is a demonstration of the gift of healing. All were healed--all from all the cities all around Jerusalem. Do you see that happening today? Like I say--the equivalent of going up and down the corridors of ALL the hospitals in any given city. It is not done anywhere in the world today. The gift of healing has ceased.

I'm not talking about fake gift healers...I'm talking about where God guides, He provides.

God has always provided. It is a promise. I walk by faith and God provides. That has nothing to do with the supernatural gifts of the Spirit.

Do your own homework. Acts 2:17 "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

It is a prophecy. When will the prophecy take place?

And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: (Acts 2:18-21)
--Don't take Scripture out of its context. Have these signs also taken place. This will take place either during or just prior to the Millennial Kingdom. I haven't seen the son turned to darkness and the moon into blood, and all of these other signs take place. You are taking Scripture out of context.

You are going to tell me this was a time before the closing of the canon and NOT literally the future?

Obviously it is yet to come.

 

[Iconoclast]

Do your own homework. Acts 2:17 "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

It is a prophecy. When will the prophecy take place?

And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: (Acts 2:18-21)
--Don't take Scripture out of its context. Have these signs also taken place. This will take place either during or just prior to the Millennial Kingdom. I haven't seen the son turned to darkness and the moon into blood, and all of these other signs take place. You are taking Scripture out of context.

You left out this verse which is key to the context:

16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

This was totally fulfilled at pentecost and in the first century...
He does not say......this is like that that will happen...He says
THIS IS THAT...that was spoken

 

[JesusFan]

The only sign that was specifically said to be a sign to the Jews was tongues (1Cor.14:21,22). Other "sign" gifts were for the purpose of revelation given and for apostolic authority. They also are not for today.

For today IF taking into account 1 Cor/Hebrews, as the "need' to confirm by Apostles Jesus and Gospel was confirmed, so switched into a diifering function in local Church!

The gift of healing has ceased. If it were for today we would find faith healers going up and down the corridors of hospitals healing ALL, without exception, those that are there, as Peter did in Acts 5:16. That is a demonstration of the gift of healing. He healed ALL that came to him (no one excluded) from all the cities round about Jerusalem.

The gift of revelatory knowledge and of prophecy, both mentioned in 1Cor.13:8, have ceased. Why? The Canon of Scripture is closed. We don't have an open canon. Like the Charismatics we don't have to go searching for all "thus saith the Lords" spoken all over the world and collate them into a book of Scripture. Their Scripture is incomplete until they do. God's Word is scattered every time someone has a Word of prophecy. They believe it is truly from God and therefore inspired. It was in the first century because the NT was incomplete and God gave them this gift to make up for the incompleteness of the Bible. But the Bible also said it would end. And it has.

I don't know ANY 'reputable" pentacostal/charasmatic who holds to "special relelation" that adds to the Bible, additional revelation!

ONLY ones that hold to that are the heretical false teachers like a benny hinn/ kenneth copeland/freferick price etc They get 'revelations" from AntiChrist spirit, not the HS!

The gift of miracles. We don't have people going around performing miracles. Only the apostles could do that. It was to authenticate them.

Not all gift are for today. Perhaps the gift of administration is for today, but not all gifts are for today.

believe that God still does heal and do miracles today, but its due to Him exercising "Free Will" and decide to overide the "natural state" so to speak!

Think some might be "sematics" also here, as IF one can expound/teach/preach on bible, would see as "prophesy"
IF one has God granted widom to use biblical principles that would be "wisdom"
IF one can use scripture to show out false doctrines "discernment"

Think its the HS giving us the means to have His insight and unserstanding in knowing and applying word of Goda lot of the time!

 

[Iconoclast]

JF

Again , Evangelical "batacostalists" like myself adhere and agree to All baptist/Christian essential core doctrines, and would believe in "no" second act of Grace, we ALL have same amount of HS filling us, Baptised by him to Body of Christ, and up to us to daily walk in His presense and power!

This is false;

Again , Evangelical "batacostalists" like myself adhere and agree to All baptist/Christian essential core doctrines

No....you want to claim that you do..but you deny a completed word of scripture.....for you to claim that revelatory gifts still operate...but yet do not give any new revelation is contradictory....

There are no bapticostals......there are charismatics who also believe in believers baptism....they are not baptists strictly speaking.

 

[DHK]

For today IF taking into account 1 Cor/Hebrews, as the "need' to confirm by Apostles Jesus and Gospel was confirmed, so switched into a diifering function in local Church!

hmmm. Doctrines "switch" as in change? Why not change the doctrine of the atonement, or the trinity--like add Mary to it? Or have in 9 in number like Benny Hinn does? Changing doctrine at will just to suit your purposes--your will and wish. I don't change God's doctrine. "Thus saith the Lord" is good enough for me. Nothing changed. Where does the Bible say that the purpose of tongues or any other sign gift "switched into a different function" for the local church today. Might I suggest that is a "heretical" view. God's Word doesn't change. Christ doesn't change. Why would you think that His doctrine changed?

I don't know ANY 'reputable" pentacostal/charasmatic who holds to "special relelation" that adds to the Bible, additional revelation!

They all do. What do you think a "word of prophecy" is? They may deny it, but it is special revelation. What does it mean when a person says: "God said to me." If God spoke exact words to them, then are they inspired or not? The reason the Mormons consider the Book of Mormon inspired is that God spoke to Joseph Smith. "God spoke to him," and therefore inspiration.

ONLY ones that hold to that are the heretical false teachers like a benny hinn/ kenneth copeland/freferick price etc They get 'revelations" from AntiChrist spirit, not the HS!

Every revelation outside of the Bible is from that same Antichrist spirit.
The Canon of Scripture is closed.

believe that God still does heal and do miracles today, but its due to Him exercising "Free Will" and decide to overide the "natural state" so to speak!

God answers prayer today. Sometimes he says yes, and sometimes, no.
Sometimes he will heal miraculously, sometimes through doctors and medicine, and sometimes through letting nature take its course. Sometimes he doesn't heal at all, but takes the person home. We can only pray for his will to be done. That has nothing to do with the gift of healing.

Think some might be "sematics" also here, as IF one can expound/teach/preach on bible, would see as "prophesy"

If people want to change the meanings of words then that is their prerogative. It is not proper or good hermeneutics and leads to error. The Bible distinctly says in 1Cor.13:8 that prophecy shall cease, and it has.

IF one has God granted widom to use biblical principles that would be "wisdom"

In the first century there may have been a gift of wisdom.
But today one can pray according to James 1:5, and God promises that he will grant wisdom to them that ask for it.

IF one can use scripture to show out false doctrines "discernment"

We can all do this by a study of the Scriptures.

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (1 Peter 3:15)
--In fact if we don't, we sin against God.

Think its the HS giving us the means to have His insight and unserstanding in knowing and applying word of Goda lot of the time! http://www.baptistboard.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=1722606

The Holy Spirit illumines the mind and gives understanding. But the believer must put the effort into study.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)