PastorSBC1303
Active Member
I am not a big fan of preachers fishing for amens. If you got to manipulate people into amening something you said, have you really said something that important?
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Do you speak Christianese?
- Thread starter Marcia
- Start date
I am for doing away with altar calls.
Why? I've already stated half of my reasoning. The ones I have seen, save ONE in my lifetime, have had a secretive quality to them. There is nothing to be ashamed of. BTW that one that was honest and open was from Evangelist Tim Lee. It's the ONLY one I've seen that seemed truly genuine.
The whole message of Christ is an invitation, isn't it?
It also partially goes back to my belief that church is for believers, and the main point of altar calls is for unbelievers.
In addition, I've seen altar calls used manipulatively. Yes, manipulatively. People HAVE to sneak up during the altar call in order to join or state they want to be baptised, rather than just talking to someone outside that time period. I've seen people "tricked" to go up there. For example:
"If you know someone who isn't saved, raise your hand. Ok you need to be up here praying".
followed by
"If you don't know someone who isn't saved, you need to be up here praying for God to put someone in your path".
One service at one church was so ridiculous they had almost everyone crowded around the alter and finally had to tell people to just get as close as they could get. What WAS the point? To make it look good in the photos for the newsletter?
And there's more. Why is it going to be too late after the last verse of "Just As I Am" plays. Yes I know they could get in a car accident the minute they drive off the parking lot or get eaten by a wildebeast or whatever the threat of the week is, but why at that particular moment?
Can the person not talk to anyone after? Why try to tell people they can "get saved" while the organ plays, but after that, it's just not the same? What if they go home and feel convicted Tuesday night? Should they wait until the next altar call? These things aren't made clear to the unbelievers, and I'm sure it probably confuses them very much.
If an unbeliever goes to an altar call and says the sinner's prayer because he was afraid he'd get in a car accident if he left without doing so, is he still saved?
Why? I've already stated half of my reasoning. The ones I have seen, save ONE in my lifetime, have had a secretive quality to them. There is nothing to be ashamed of. BTW that one that was honest and open was from Evangelist Tim Lee. It's the ONLY one I've seen that seemed truly genuine.
The whole message of Christ is an invitation, isn't it?
It also partially goes back to my belief that church is for believers, and the main point of altar calls is for unbelievers.
In addition, I've seen altar calls used manipulatively. Yes, manipulatively. People HAVE to sneak up during the altar call in order to join or state they want to be baptised, rather than just talking to someone outside that time period. I've seen people "tricked" to go up there. For example:
"If you know someone who isn't saved, raise your hand. Ok you need to be up here praying".
followed by
"If you don't know someone who isn't saved, you need to be up here praying for God to put someone in your path".
One service at one church was so ridiculous they had almost everyone crowded around the alter and finally had to tell people to just get as close as they could get. What WAS the point? To make it look good in the photos for the newsletter?
And there's more. Why is it going to be too late after the last verse of "Just As I Am" plays. Yes I know they could get in a car accident the minute they drive off the parking lot or get eaten by a wildebeast or whatever the threat of the week is, but why at that particular moment?
Can the person not talk to anyone after? Why try to tell people they can "get saved" while the organ plays, but after that, it's just not the same? What if they go home and feel convicted Tuesday night? Should they wait until the next altar call? These things aren't made clear to the unbelievers, and I'm sure it probably confuses them very much.
If an unbeliever goes to an altar call and says the sinner's prayer because he was afraid he'd get in a car accident if he left without doing so, is he still saved?
Manipulation, tactics, sneaky ? When did the people of God turn on itself?
We sure like to eat our own dont we. The mistrust that seems to have grown in order to promote doing something different is in itself a tactic, manipulation, and sneaky.
Shame on you.
We sure like to eat our own dont we. The mistrust that seems to have grown in order to promote doing something different is in itself a tactic, manipulation, and sneaky.
Shame on you.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Revmitchell,
just another of the devil's tactics. If people can be convinced that the altar call is not necessary, then the sinner only feels a conviction without an invitation. That one has time to think, 'Oh, it was just a feeling, it will pass.'
Satan does not want people to respond to the calling of God, to the drawing by the Spirit.
just another of the devil's tactics. If people can be convinced that the altar call is not necessary, then the sinner only feels a conviction without an invitation. That one has time to think, 'Oh, it was just a feeling, it will pass.'
Satan does not want people to respond to the calling of God, to the drawing by the Spirit.
Snitzelhoff
New Member
Not to get the thread back on topic or anything, but another cliched phrase that makes me twitch: "God-shaped hole." Excuse me? What shape is God exactly? Where is this hole? Is God reduced to the Divine Putty to fill us in?
Marcia
Active Member
Pascal (I think) said this, but I've never liked it nor have I used the phrase. It sounds like we all have a need that God can fill, which makes it seem like therapy or something.
The real issue for an unbeliever is that they are under God's wrath for sin and need to see who Christ is.
Marcia said:
Pascal (I think) said this, but I've never liked it nor have I used the phrase. It sounds like we all have a need that God can fill, which makes it seem like therapy or something.
He did but he didn't - the sentiment is certainly part of his theology (as it was Augustine's - and Pascal was very Augustinian in his thinking) though he never actually used the phrase "God-shaped hole" or "God-shaped vacuum" as far as I can tell.
But Pascal wasn't saying that we all have a need that God can fill. Quite the opposite, in fact: what he said was that every man has a need of God, even though in his unbelief, being prejudiced against God, he attempts to fill that need with a variety of substitutes, be it sex, food, idolatry, or whatever. See Pensée #425.
Pascal (I think) said this, but I've never liked it nor have I used the phrase. It sounds like we all have a need that God can fill, which makes it seem like therapy or something.
He did but he didn't - the sentiment is certainly part of his theology (as it was Augustine's - and Pascal was very Augustinian in his thinking) though he never actually used the phrase "God-shaped hole" or "God-shaped vacuum" as far as I can tell.
But Pascal wasn't saying that we all have a need that God can fill. Quite the opposite, in fact: what he said was that every man has a need of God, even though in his unbelief, being prejudiced against God, he attempts to fill that need with a variety of substitutes, be it sex, food, idolatry, or whatever. See Pensée #425.
Yow! Do you honestly believe that none of my points were valid, and that it is Satan working through me to fulfill his tactics?!
I ask you to kindly reconsider.
BTW I enjoy seeing people respond to God. Unfortunately, if they do it in an invitation I'm not supposed to be looking!
If you've never been in a church where the methods I described were not used, that's absolutely awesome and I'm thankful to hear it. However, if you haven't seen it, how can you say it's ok and not really happening? I'm not lying. I was there in those situations.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Even Peter, whom Jesus said was blessed, was used of satan in a couple instances in the Bible.
Let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall.
Let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall.
Throw double edged swords to the people, look what happens!
I don't enjoy eating other Christians. They're soft and mushy and only taste half-edible when eaten with a generic ketchup.
Seriously...I don't think it's ok for leaders to manipulate church members into decisions. To say it isn't right isn't turning against God's people, it's saying that the behavior isn't right. And it isn't.
Yes, I said sneaking. Where in the Bible does this concept come from? Did the masses close their eyes while thousands came forward to John, to Paul, to Christ?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
I look at this verse as an altar call.
Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
I want every head bowed and every eye closed. If there is anyone here who doesn't know the Lord as their savior and would like to have a personal relationship with him, would you please raise you hand right now and simply put it back down. There's one and yes you in the balcony. I see you too. God bless you brother. Now if you just raised your hand, I am going to ask you to repeat this prayer with me (insert sinners prayer here). Now as the pianist and organist play and we sing 400 verses of Just As I Am, I am going to ask you to come down here and if you just prayed that prayer to make your decision public. If you are still not sure and need to talk to someone about it, I hope you will come down and talk to us. Please don't wait for tommorow. Who knows what tommorow may bring. You may never see tommorow. Do it while we sing, because 12:15 is my personal time and we will be getting to the restaraunt as soon as the service is over.
I have heard it so many times, I just about have it memorized by now.
Joseph Botwinick
I have heard it so many times, I just about have it memorized by now.
Joseph Botwinick
So let me get this straight... the closing of the eyes is the issue you have and the very thing that leads you to believe there is some manipulation going on?
The problem is that the whole altar call thing is "man"-ipulation. Many have the philosophy that God can not save someone unles a certain FORM is followed - a raised hand, repeating a prayer, now shake my hand if you really meant it, etc. All completely unfound in scripture.
Not at all! Here's what I already said on this thread. (easy to miss when a lot of people are posting, so don't worry, I understand!)
Originally posted by Gina L:
Oh man, I ALWAYS had to look!
I actually find that offensive now. God's people shouldn't be taught to be ashamed, they should be taught to come with boldness and with joy that they will be accepted.
We're also to share our burdens with each other.
It's no secret that human individuals occasionally have problems.
ESPECIALLY when someone is coming up front for the purpose of expressing their love for Christ, that should be an all open, praise God, let's all stomp and cheer type of deal, not someone trying to slither between people and sneak up and get it over with, without anyone noticing. What happened to rejoicing when a sinner once lost is found?
The same thing for baptisms. Everyone just stands there! Joy in the camp? Sure, just keep it quiet. LOL