Do you understand the Covenant This way?

[Iconoclast]

Do you as a professed Christian think in these terms....
1] never
2] seldom
3]always
4] I never have heard of such things;
and explain-
From Prof.David Englesma: Keeping Gods Covenant

Where today do professing Christians think of their salvation as a matter of God’s making His covenant with them? Rather, salvation is commonly thought of as their making a decision for Christ.

Where today do Christians practice the Christian life of holiness as a matter of keeping the covenant? Rather, they devote their life to Jesus, or imitate the life of Christ, or obey certain rules laid down in the Bible.

The covenant is of the greatest importance according to Scripture. When God began to work out the salvation of His people in the nation of Israel in the Old Testament—a work that would culminate in the coming of Jesus the Messiah and His redemption of the people of God—God began that work by making His covenant with Abraham and his seed ( Gen. 12 ). The history of the Old Testament from this point on is covenant history. Since this history has Jesus Christ as its goal, Jesus Christ came into the world to fulfil the covenant and on behalf of the covenant. This is how Zacharias explained the birth of Jesus in Luke 1:72 , 73: “to remember his holy covenant; the oath which he sware to our father Abraham."

The entire saving work of Jesus Christ is making the covenant—the new covenant—with the elect church and each member in particular. This is the teaching of Hebrews 8:6-13 . By Jesus Christ, the high priest, God makes a new covenant with His people as He promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 . By His atoning death, Jesus earned the right for God’s people to receive the covenant. By His Spirit and Word, Jesus actually makes the covenant with each of God’s people personally. Therefore, Hebrews 8:6 gives Jesus the title, the mediator of the covenant.
Such is the importance of the covenant that it is salvation for a person. That God made His covenant
with Abraham was Abraham’s salvation. The various blessings Abraham received from God were covenant blessings, particularly, justification ( Gen. 15:6 ). Galatians 3:6ff . instructs us New Testament Christians that the covenant is our salvation and that we receive and enjoy salvation only in the covenant. Indeed, the passage teaches that the covenant God made with Abraham is our salvation. Verse 8 describes the promise God made to Abraham in Genesis 17 and other places as God’s preaching of the gospel to Abraham, particularly, the gospel that God would justify the heathen through faith. Verse 13 teaches that Christ’s redemptive death was the fulfillment of the covenant with Abraham. The entire passage teaches us Gentile believers that our justification by faith, our receiving the Holy Spirit, and our inheriting eternal life are blessings that come to us in the covenant made with Abraham and his seed.

 

[agedman]

Why do you not see the covenant starting at the end of Eden?


Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Thy seed - all that pertain to the satanic kingdom including the unregenerate.

Her seed - all that pertain to the promise

Bruise his heel - promise of the suffering Christ.

I understand that God spoke specifically to Abraham about the covenant and nation building, but it seems that the actual covenant was the promise of delivery and separation of "sheep and goats" in Genesis.

 

[Iconoclast]

Why do you not see the covenant starting at the end of Eden?


Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Thy seed - all that pertain to the satanic kingdom including the unregenerate.

Her seed - all that pertain to the promise

Bruise his heel - promise of the suffering Christ.

I understand that God spoke specifically to Abraham about the covenant and nation building, but it seems that the actual covenant was the promise of delivery and separation of "sheep and goats" in Genesis.

This is fine:thumbsup: I personally look back to the Covenant of Redemption,before the world was:wavey::wavey:
The Nt. speaks of the time when the promise was revealed to Abraham
,as the means that God ordained for gentiles to come in mass.

 

[Iconoclast]

What about this quote?

here is the link;
http://www.prca.org/books/Keeping_Covenant/Covenant.htm

 

[agedman]

This is fine:thumbsup: I personally look back to the Covenant of Redemption,before the world was:wavey::wavey:
The Nt. speaks of the time when the promise was revealed to Abraham
,as the means that God ordained for gentiles to come in mass.

Considering that such a covenant then would be made as an agreement of the trinity would certainly hold to the truth of Christ's statement as the alpha and omega - relating to salvation.

Then it would follow that each covenant was disclosing and expressing to man the terms of which were already complete and sealed before the foundations were laid of this world.

 

[Iconoclast]

Considering that such a covenant then would be made as an agreement of the trinity would certainly hold to the truth of Christ's statement as the alpha and omega - relating to salvation.

Then it would follow that each covenant was disclosing and expressing to man the terms of which were already complete and sealed before the foundations were laid of this world.

Yes....God's purpose was progressively revealed:

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

The Lord Jesus Christ is the full final revelation of it:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Why do you not see the covenant starting at the end of Eden?


Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Thy seed - all that pertain to the satanic kingdom including the unregenerate.

Her seed - all that pertain to the promise

Bruise his heel - promise of the suffering Christ.

I understand that God spoke specifically to Abraham about the covenant and nation building, but it seems that the actual covenant was the promise of delivery and separation of "sheep and goats" in Genesis.

I have always viewed the "seed of the woman" as being Christ...as he had no earthly Father, and he "crushed the Serpents head" at the cross. We are all the "seed" of Adam, but the "second Adam" was NOT! Hence sinless. bogarted this from angelfire:

This verse provides the theme of the rest of Genesis. This will be a book about two seeds:
Genesis is a book about two seeds. God initially created all life to reproduce after its kind. Throughout the first chapter of Genesis, we read a continuing refrain where plants and birds and fish and animals and even mankind is created to bear fruit "after its kind." But man rebelled and sinned against God. And so, a promise was given. It was a promise of TWO SEEDS.

The promise is found in Genesis 3:15. The first seed was to be the seed of the serpent. It was the seed of rebellion. It was the seed of sin. It was made up of all who walked in the way of Adam in turning against God.

But there is also a second seed promised. It is the seed of the woman. This second seed is set over against the first seed. The two seeds are at war with one another. And God has decreed that the second seed shall ultimately win.

From our vantage point, we know that this second seed is ultimately fulfilled in Jesus Christ - the One who was bruised for our iniquities as He crushed underfoot the Serpent's Head.

http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/gn03-15.html

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Do you as a professed Christian think in these terms....
1] never
2] seldom
3]always
4] I never have heard of such things;
and explain-
From Prof.David Englesma: Keeping Gods Covenant

Where today do professing Christians think of their salvation as a matter of God’s making His covenant with them? Rather, salvation is commonly thought of as their making a decision for Christ.

Where today do Christians practice the Christian life of holiness as a matter of keeping the covenant? Rather, they devote their life to Jesus, or imitate the life of Christ, or obey certain rules laid down in the Bible.

The covenant is of the greatest importance according to Scripture. When God began to work out the salvation of His people in the nation of Israel in the Old Testament—a work that would culminate in the coming of Jesus the Messiah and His redemption of the people of God—God began that work by making His covenant with Abraham and his seed ( Gen. 12 ). The history of the Old Testament from this point on is covenant history. Since this history has Jesus Christ as its goal, Jesus Christ came into the world to fulfil the covenant and on behalf of the covenant. This is how Zacharias explained the birth of Jesus in Luke 1:72 , 73: “to remember his holy covenant; the oath which he sware to our father Abraham."

The entire saving work of Jesus Christ is making the covenant—the new covenant—with the elect church and each member in particular. This is the teaching of Hebrews 8:6-13 . By Jesus Christ, the high priest, God makes a new covenant with His people as He promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 . By His atoning death, Jesus earned the right for God’s people to receive the covenant. By His Spirit and Word, Jesus actually makes the covenant with each of God’s people personally. Therefore, Hebrews 8:6 gives Jesus the title, the mediator of the covenant.
Such is the importance of the covenant that it is salvation for a person. That God made His covenant
with Abraham was Abraham’s salvation. The various blessings Abraham received from God were covenant blessings, particularly, justification ( Gen. 15:6 ). Galatians 3:6ff . instructs us New Testament Christians that the covenant is our salvation and that we receive and enjoy salvation only in the covenant. Indeed, the passage teaches that the covenant God made with Abraham is our salvation. Verse 8 describes the promise God made to Abraham in Genesis 17 and other places as God’s preaching of the gospel to Abraham, particularly, the gospel that God would justify the heathen through faith. Verse 13 teaches that Christ’s redemptive death was the fulfillment of the covenant with Abraham. The entire passage teaches us Gentile believers that our justification by faith, our receiving the Holy Spirit, and our inheriting eternal life are blessings that come to us in the covenant made with Abraham and his seed.

Although this is worded in a uniquely Cal way, I agree with this by Englesma...the direct answer to the OP question for me is probably a (sometimes) Englesma is a Supra too

The only thing I disagree with would be the opening paragraphs:

Where today do professing Christians think of their salvation as a matter of God’s making His covenant with them? Rather, salvation is commonly thought of as their making a decision for Christ.

This, to me, is a false dichotomy as they do not appear to be contradictory.

The second paragraph simply makes no sense to me either...it doesn't appear to be an either/or situation....It's a good lecture though.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is fine:thumbsup: I personally look back to the Covenant of Redemption,before the world was:wavey::wavey:
The Nt. speaks of the time when the promise was revealed to Abraham
,as the means that God ordained for gentiles to come in mass.

Are you talking here of the Covenant between the trinity, or the Covenant of Works, as don't see EITHER of them in the scriptures!

My Bible just tells me that we are under a new Covenant , that was ushered in by death of yeshua!

 

[Iconoclast]

Although this is worded in a uniquely Cal way, I agree with this by Englesma...the direct answer to the OP question for me is probably a (sometimes) Englesma is a Supra too

The only thing I disagree with would be the opening paragraphs:

Where today do professing Christians think of their salvation as a matter of God’s making His covenant with them? Rather, salvation is commonly thought of as their making a decision for Christ.

This, to me, is a false dichotomy as they do not appear to be contradictory.

The second paragraph simply makes no sense to me either...it doesn't appear to be an either/or situation....It's a good lecture though.

I enjoy prof Englesma......but like anyone else ...he travels down several paths that I do not follow But when I read him or any other trusted guide...I take what i can from him and see it through a scriptural lens...
But I keep in mind...it is not about Prof Engelsma, or calvin, or Pink etc...it is about God and his word and his church. i do not want to reject good teaching....but rather to examine it...hold fast to what is good.

So when he expresses a padeo view of the covenant....I look up the verses he offers...agree where i can....see what he says towards or about baptists who read it....consider it....and then see how i respond scripturally.

he does not believe in common grace....he is supra lapsarian....but that does not disturb me so much.....I know what verses they use for it...
But each one of us will give account of themselves to God.

 

[Yeshua1]

seed of Abhraham singular, as was the One promised thru mary to come!

that was/is jesus the Messiah!

NO need to read into the promise of messiah to come in Genesis as being seed of satan, God etc, as that gets close to being the olr heretical 2 seed doctrine of Satan physically birthing a siiner seed race!

 

[Iconoclast]

Are you talking here of the Covenant between the trinity, or the Covenant of Works, as don't see EITHER of them in the scriptures!

My Bible just tells me that we are under a new Covenant , that was ushered in by death of yeshua!

.question....was this a covenant??? The text does not say it was ...

2sam7
7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?

8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:

9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.

10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,

11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the Lord telleth thee that he will make thee an house.

12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.


answer;
psalm 89

3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

salvation.

27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I enjoy prof Englesma......but like anyone else ...he travels down several paths that I do not follow But when I read him or any other trusted guide...I take what i can from him and see it through a scriptural lens...
But I keep in mind...it is not about Prof Engelsma, or calvin, or Pink etc...it is about God and his word and his church. i do not want to reject good teaching....but rather to examine it...hold fast to what is good.

So when he expresses a padeo view of the covenant....I look up the verses he offers...agree where i can....see what he says towards or about baptists who read it....consider it....and then see how i respond scripturally.

he does not believe in common grace....he is supra lapsarian....but that does not disturb me so much.....I know what verses they use for it...
But each one of us will give account of themselves to God.

Yah, outside of the two introductory paragraphs, I rather enjoyed his teaching....then again....I am partial towards Supra-lapsarians in that I consider them to be the logically consistent and unapologetic Calvinists. I am vaguely annoyed sometimes by infras, in that I think they are fighting a battle they cannot win....this for instance:

http://www.edstetzer.com/Molinism- How to be a consistent infralapsarian.pdf

I LOVE me some SUPRAS!!!!

 

[Yeshua1]

promise made to david by god that one day His descendent would rule on throne of isreal, and jesus shall at His second coming!

Old Covenant no longer in effect, as new Covenant supplanted that!

 

[asterisktom]

promise made to david by god that one day His descendent would rule on throne of isreal, and jesus shall at His second coming!

Old Covenant no longer in effect, as new Covenant supplanted that!

If you believe the Old Covenant is no longer in effect (I agree) why do you imagine a return to that very same Old Covenant in the future? (Worship tied to a place, contrary to John 4:24, return to Jew-Gentile distinctions, contrary to Eph. 2, return to Levitical priesthood, contrary to Hebrews, etc. - assuming you are getting your scenario from Ezekiel)

 

[Iconoclast]

Yah, outside of the two introductory paragraphs, I rather enjoyed his teaching....then again....I am partial towards Supra-lapsarians in that I consider them to be the logically consistent and unapologetic Calvinists. I am vaguely annoyed sometimes by infras, in that I think they are fighting a battle they cannot win....this for instance:

http://www.edstetzer.com/Molinism- How to be a consistent infralapsarian.pdf

I LOVE me some SUPRAS!!!!

I am in between ...but more infra leaning...the supras have 4 strong texts..
i am okay with either view because only one is correct.....but like any other teaching...whatever God says or teaches is alright with me....
will look at your link later...must go pick up my trailer at target warehouse soon....was just witnessing to three persons at the truckstop..haha...did not ask them to walk the aisle or raise a hand....but did plant some seed..lol

The christian reformed guys are tough and lean toward the hard right of the spectrum.....I do not go all the way where they go...but many of them produce good study material....they just go over the line in my estimation.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am in between ...but more infra leaning...the supras have 4 strong texts..
i am okay with either view because only one is correct.....but like any other teaching...whatever God says or teaches is alright with me....
will look at your link later...must go pick up my trailer at target warehouse soon....was just witnessing to three persons at the truckstop..haha...did not ask them to walk the aisle or raise a hand....but did plant some seed..lol

The christian reformed guys are tough and lean toward the hard right of the spectrum.....I do not go all the way where they go...but many of them produce good study material....they just go over the line in my estimation.

Indeed, as some go so far as to holding that Gods election saves us in Christ, regardless if we even place faith in jesus!

 

[saturneptune]

I apologize in advance for making my comments simple on this subject, but I have always thought of covenant theology as a unified purpose of God from eternity past to glorification. The purpose of the Old Testement is to prepare for the incarnation of Jesus Christ to this world, and the purpose of the New Testement is the revelation of Jesus Christ. To me, it is a single story, with God directing the plot, and a certain outcome. I think the Old and New Testement complement one another, not negate.

Where things really get complicated to me is dispensational theories. This may be similar to covenant in ways, but the emphasis here is different ages, and dealing with man in different ways. In covenant, although dealing with seperate covenants, it seems the Lord is dealing with mankind the same.

This is a subject that I would appreciate any insight on. Can one be one that believes in covenant theology and still be a pre trib, pre mil, or is that limited to dispensational?

 

[Yeshua1]

I apologize in advance for making my comments simple on this subject, but I have always thought of covenant theology as a unified purpose of God from eternity past to glorification. The purpose of the Old Testement is to prepare for the incarnation of Jesus Christ to this world, and the purpose of the New Testement is the revelation of Jesus Christ. To me, it is a single story, with God directing the plot, and a certain outcome. I think the Old and New Testement complement one another, not negate.

Where things really get complicated to me is dispensational theories. This may be similar to covenant in ways, but the emphasis here is different ages, and dealing with man in different ways. In covenant, although dealing with seperate covenants, it seems the Lord is dealing with mankind the same.

This is a subject that I would appreciate any insight on. Can one be one that believes in covenant theology and still be a pre trib, pre mil, or is that limited to dispensational?

think that the very nature of Covenant theology is that they would see either pretierism or A mil ONLY way to go on the eschatology express!

Do you hold more to a pre mil view?

 

[agedman]

promise made to david by god that one day His descendent would rule on throne of isreal, and jesus shall at His second coming!

Old Covenant no longer in effect, as new Covenant supplanted that!

Or, that God revealed another paragraph of the old covenant just as He did when He chose Abram.

Perhaps what some have taken as a multi-covenant God, is really a singular covenant in which certain parts and matters are revealed as God determines. From the human view, it may merely seem like a "new" but it is just more of the original that is revealed.