Doctrinal Defintions of Faith

[webdog]

That's pretty low, rb.

 

[webdog]

I don't see how being a Calvinist leads to the extreme of LS. LS is not about salvation by grace (according the quotes you provided). It's about salvation by works. Calvinisn is not about salvation by works, far from it.

The "P" in the flower sounds awfully like a works based salvation to me. If we persevere...we are saved. If we don't...we never were. The hinge of salvation is our performance.

 

[Amy.G]

The "P" in the flower sounds awfully like a works based salvation to me. If we persevere...we are saved. If we don't...we never were. The hinge of salvation is our performance.

Those who are saved will persevere because:

Phl 1:6 {For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

[webdog]

Those who are saved will persevere because:

Phl 1:6 {For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Who's doing the perfecting...He who gave it, or us? I don't see this Scripture as support for the "P".

You have the issue of Lot, too. Didn't see him doing too much persevering in S&G...yet he was one of only a handful of people in Scripture to be declared both godly and righteous.

 

[Amy.G]

Who's doing the perfecting...He who gave it, or us? I don't see this Scripture as support for the "P".

You have the issue of Lot, too. Didn't see him doing too much persevering in S&G...yet he was one of only a handful of people in Scripture to be declared both godly and righteous.

Phl 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for {His} good pleasure.

God is doing the perfecting and the work. It's called sanctification and it doesn't happen overnight. We've all made mistakes as Lot did. That doesn't mean we won't persevere. God takes imperfect people and does his perfecting through them. But it's all of God. We can take no credit for it.

 

[webdog]

Phl 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for {His} good pleasure.

God is doing the perfecting and the work. It's called sanctification and it doesn't happen overnight. We've all made mistakes as Lot did. That doesn't mean we won't persevere. God takes imperfect people and does his perfecting through them. But it's all of God. We can take no credit for it.

Do you believe Lot's wife was saved? Was she persevering when she died? The Angels did come to take Lot and his family...those who were righteous out of the city, no?

 

[Amy.G]

Do you believe Lot's wife was saved? Was she persevering when she died? The Angels did come to take Lot and his family...those who were righteous out of the city, no?

No. I do not believe she was saved.

1Cr 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

Is the unbelieving spouse saved because they are sanctified?

 

[webdog]

No. I do not believe she was saved.

1Cr 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

Is the unbelieving spouse saved because they are sanctified?

Really? That Scripture is not talking about spiritual sanctification. The fact is, the Angels came to rescue the righteous from the city. Abraham got God down to 10 righteous people (another whole discussion about God listening to man and responding...while remaining sovereign), and the city would be saved. The righteous were removed. Like Moses, Lot's wife disobeyed a direct order from God and perished bodily...not spiritually.

The unsaved spouse of a saved one receives a type of sanctification from God that allows the saved partner to still fulfill God's work through the believer. How? who knows, could be any number of ways. They still would not be deemed righteous, though.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Are you saying that one may be saved but not a disciple?

I did not say that. I showed what MacArthur and LS teaches. Once a lost person is genuinely born again he/she becomes a disciple. LS demands an upfront commitment to the works of a disciple (Eph. 2:10) for the reception of eternal life. For example:

“Anyone who wants to come after Jesus into the Kingdom of God--anyone who wants to be a Christian--has to face three commands: 1) deny himself, 2) take up his cross daily, and 3) follow him.” (JM: Hard to Believe)

When you read quotes like that you find that they are given in the context of what JM and LS demands as preconditions to be agreed to for a lost man to be born again. When he writes, "...to be a Christian," what he is actually saying is, "...to become a Christian."

LS teaches that a lost man must make an upfront commitment/promise for self-denial, cross-bearing and following to be born again.


LM

 

[J.D.]

Really? That Scripture is not talking about spiritual sanctification. The fact is, the Angels came to rescue the righteous from the city. Abraham got God down to 10 righteous people (another whole discussion about God listening to man and responding...while remaining sovereign), and the city would be saved. The righteous were removed. Like Moses, Lot's wife disobeyed a direct order from God and perished bodily...not spiritually.

The unsaved spouse of a saved one receives a type of sanctification from God that allows the saved partner to still fulfill God's work through the believer.

So are you saying that Moses did not preservere?

 

[Lou Martuneac]

That's pretty low, rb.

Web:

I pay no attention to it. This is what comes from men whose character is bankrupt and doctrine corrupt. The Judgment Seat of Christ will sort it out.

My reputation belongs to God, and God knows the truth.


LM

 

[Amy.G]

Really? That Scripture is not talking about spiritual sanctification. The fact is, the Angels came to rescue the righteous from the city. Abraham got God down to 10 righteous people (another whole discussion about God listening to man and responding...while remaining sovereign), and the city would be saved. The righteous were removed. Like Moses, Lot's wife disobeyed a direct order from God and perished bodily...not spiritually.

The unsaved spouse of a saved one receives a type of sanctification from God that allows the saved partner to still fulfill God's work through the believer. How? who knows, could be any number of ways.

Only 4 (not 10) were led out of the city.

Gen 19:15 When morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Up, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away in the punishment of the city."

Lot was the only one who was called righteous.

What is your alternative? If one doesn't persevere, does he lose his salvation?

 

[webdog]

So are you saying that Moses did not preservere?

In a works sense? No. His death was a direct result of h is sin. Scripture tells us his eyes had not grown dim, and he was still strong, meaning he was still fit for God's work, but disobeyed.

 

[Amy.G]

Web:

I pay no attention to it. This is what comes from men whose character is bankrupt and doctrine corrupt. The Judgment Seat of Christ will sort it out.

My reputation belongs to God, and God knows the truth.


LM

Now that is lower than low. RB's character is NOT bankrupt nor his doctrine corrupt. You will answer for your accusations at the Judgement seat of Christ.

 

[J.D.]

Once a lost person is genuinely born again he/she becomes a disciple.

Agree!

When he writes, "...to be a Christian," what he is actually saying is, "...to become a Christian."

I haven't read the book, but it seems to me that if he wrote down the words "to be a Christian", he didn't mean "to become a Christian". The difference between "be" and "become" is significant, and if he did intend to say "to become a Christian", then I would disagree with him.

 

[webdog]

Only 4 (not 10) were led out of the city.

Ten were required to save the city...not save the individuals

Lot was the only one who was called righteous.

Then if his family was not righteous, why didn't they perish along with the rest of the unrighteous?

What is your alternative? If one doesn't persevere, does he lose his salvation?

No. Once saved, always in His grip.

 

[Amy.G]

No. Once saved, always in His grip.

So, the saved persevere, just like I said. Why are you arguing with me?

 

[webdog]

Now that is lower than low. RB's character is NOT bankrupt nor his doctrine corrupt. You will answer for your accusations at the Judgement seat of Christ.

...and RB attributing Lou's ministry to that of greed and self seeking is that one of good character? Your new doctrine is severly veiling your judgement, Amy :tear:

 

[webdog]

So, the saved persevere, just like I said. Why are you arguing with me?

The saved DON'T always persevere...like Lot!!

I lived a backslidden life for MANY years. I never lost my salvation, but if I had died during that time, I would have been saved as though through fire.

 

[J.D.]

In a works sense? No. His death was a direct result of h is sin. Scripture tells us his eyes had not grown dim, and he was still strong, meaning he was still fit for God's work, but disobeyed.

Actually the doctrine of preserverence teaches a preserverence in FAITH:

From the 1689:

And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein,9 whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit,10 come to have their graces and comforts impaired,11 have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded,12 hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves,13 yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.14

Moses was punished for his disobedience, but he persevered in faith nonetheless. Moses was going toward the promised land when he died. Lot's wife turned back to Sodom. Lot was a righteous man. His soul was vexed because of the filthy lifestyle of the people, but Lot himself was not filthy. God rescued him from Sodom. Lot persevered in faith.