Doctrinal Defintions of Faith

The "P" is not dealing with persevering in the faith. Once one has his heart circumcised...their is no un-circomcising or un-persevering going on. The "P" is dealing with works.

 

Perseverance is another way of saying Christians cannot fall from grace. OSAS.

Edit: Sorry JD. I didn't see your post when I typed mine. You said the same thing. oops.

 

My oops. It was your conversation and I butted in. I couldn't resist!

 

If you'll recall the TULIP was in response to Arminianism, which teaches one can lose their salvation. So, the P is in response to that. OSAS.

 

Maybe since you are new to your doctrine, that's what you think it means... but as in LS, there is more to it than it simply meaning OSAS. If npetreley didn't have me on ignore, I believe even he would agree with me that he doesn't hold to the "P". He calls it what I call it "preservation of the saints". Persevering is what we do. Preservation is what God does. OSAS does not fall under perseverance, rather God's preservation of His own.

 

Please! Butt in 'til your heart's content!

 

Yes, I have also heard it called preservation, and I would go with that. It's probably a better way to put it, but the idea is still that one cannot lose their salvation. If you want to change it to preservation, that's fine with me.

I'll ask NP for you.

NP! Help me out here! I'm not persevering! :laugh:

 

I quoted directly from the 1689 on perseverence. It agrees with all the other reformed confessions in defining perseverence. If you want to give it a coloquial definition then help yourself.

 

What does the P in TULIP have to do with LS anyway?

 

Removed-----------

 

I believe John M.'s position here is being misrepresented. As someone else mentioned, John M. isn't speaking of "becoming a Christian" (gaining salvation) he is speaking of "being a Christian". Meaning, what should it look like to be a follower/disciple of Christ.

Notice the "subsequent to conversion" comment. J. Mac is speaking of what follows salvation. This is the same thing Amy G. and J.D. have been saying all along. Good works should follow saving faith.

Again, this is a misrepresentation of what J. Mac said. The call to discipleship is after conversion.

This time you have left out the quote about "subsequent to conversion". Why? Because it demonstrates that J. Mac is speaking of our post conversion faith.

peace to youraying:

 

Nothing!!!

 

Matthew 13:
18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

How can you lose salvation? You can believe you had something you really didn't have in the first place.

2 Peter 2:
17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[Prov. 26:11 ]and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

 

My theory is that the whole doctrine of salvation goes askew when we use that term "get saved". Salvation is a state of being, not something to be gotten. It is a life, not a commodity. It is not something you "get", and then you "have" it. It is something either you ARE or ARE NOT. The whole work of salvation includes our justification, sanctification, and glorification. When people experience conversion, they say "I got saved, and that's it, it's over". But nothing could be further from the truth. The conversion experience is just the tiny infantile beginning of salvation. The whole of the Christian life incompasses the salvation experience. God would not only have us saved from the penalty of sin (justification), he would also have us saved from the power of sin in our lives (sanctification), and will save us from the presence of sin in the resurrection (glorification). No "getting" saved, but "being" saved. See the difference?

 

Yes. Execellent post! :thumbs:

 

Signing off now. I'm glad I had some time to spend with you folks today. Later!

 

Me too! :wavey:

 

I really don't know what you can misrepresent about...

“Anyone who wants to come after Jesus into the Kingdom of God--anyone who wants to be a Christian--has to face three commands: 1) deny himself, 2) take up his cross daily, and 3) follow him.” (John MacArthur: Hard to Believe)

 

They are opposite ends of the same coin. One requires an upfront commitment of discipleship in exchange for salvation (LS) the other requires a commitment of discipleship to prove one is saved. Both are works based...not faith based.

 

Perseverance/preseverance is not about man's commitment. It's about the faithfulness of God to "preserve" those who are His.