Doctrinal Defintions of Faith

[canadyjd]

Good point.Hbr 12:11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness

Thank you, that was the passage I was thinking of.

peace to youraying:

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

Salvation includes a transformed life. How can a truly saved person have no outward signs of that salvation? What, then, would separate them from the rest of the world? What is missing, I think, in your agrument is the presence of Holy Spirit in a Christian's life. God disciplines those that He loves. It is Holy Spirit that brings us to conviction of our sins and repentance. God's discipline is effective.

peace to youraying:

First what separates them from the rest of the world is Jesus Christ who makes them righteous. That is what separates them. Secondly, no I am not missing the presence of the Holy Spirit. No one is arguing the Holy Spirit's convicting work or the discipline of God in the life of a believer. None of that was mentioned or even intimated. You are assuming positions by me not stated or implied. Please stick with what I am saying and forgo imposing upon my words assumptions or interpretations not present or warranted.

However, for the sake of patience let's look at the verse you introduced:

11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

While the believers "who have been trained by it" (the Divine discipline) have in their life a harvest of righteousness it is clear here that there are some believers who are not trained by it, implied by the statement, "for those who have been trained by it". And we know from verse 8 that only believers are spiritually disciplined.

These are believers who go further into negative volition toward God's plan and His Word. The go further into greater Divine discipline. Ultimately, if they do not respond to Divine discipline they have the sin unto death. The last cycle of discipline for the believer living in chaotic rebellion toward God and unresponsive to His escalating forms of loving discipline.

 

[canadyjd]

First what separates them from the rest of the world is Jesus Christ who makes them righteous.

By "righteous" do you mean a positional standing before God?

Secondly, no I am not missing the presence of the Holy Spirit. No one is arguing the Holy Spirit's convicting work of the discipline of God in the life of a believer. None of that was mentioned or even intimated.

You said

Alex Quackenbush"Christians go seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months or years without outward signs.

I pointed out that you didn't mention the work of Holy Spirit in disciplining believers and bringing those who walking astray to repentance.

You are assuming positions by me not stated or implied. Please stick with what I am saying and forgo imposing upon my words assumptions or interpretations not present or warranted.

Well, I'm not trying to assume or impose anything on you. I'm just asking a question.

Please explain what you see as the work of Holy Spirit in the life of a professing Christian that is showing no signs of salvation.

peace to youraying:

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, YOU said the measurements were specific. You tell me what the specific measurements are. The word you are using, specific, means that the measurements are fixed. You said the measurements to determine one is saved are SPECIFIC. You said this. I am asking you for the SPECIFIC measurements. I am the one saying the ONLY measurement is if one has believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. YOU are saying there are SPECIFIC measurements: Please tell me them. To provide an incomplete list of these measurements means they are NOT SPECIFIC or you cannot provide it. And in either case you are in trouble since these SPECIFIC measurements are what you are saying one uses to determine themselves if they are saved. I am not the one saying there are SPECIFIC measurements so YOU are the one that has to tell ME how many there are. YOU are saying they are specific. . I am saying there is only one, belief in Christ as Savior.

If you state there is a specific number of Jellybeans in a jar then there is a fixed number of them. If you say a person's arm length is a specific measurement then there will be one measurement. If a person says there are specific procedures to do something then there will be a clear and fix number of procedures clearly delineated. You say there are SPECIFIC measurements for a person to determine they are saved, you make this claim. So tell me these SPECIFIC ones. To leave something out is to deny your own claim that they are SPECIFIC.

Ok, can we scratch the words "specific or certain" from this discussion? You are making way to much of this and not listening to what I'm saying.
Let's just say that a person is changed and will show it outwardly if they have been converted. I have given you 9 scripture references during our discussion to back my beliefs. You have given 0.

Please give us some scripture to prove what you are saying. Otherwise, it is nothing more than your opinion.

(By change of course we are talking about OUTWARD changes) So tell me, how much change do you require. Again, you are introducing an arbitrary measurement. If the person has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ they are saved. That is THE CHANGE that is necessary for salvation. Outward changes are not required to be saved. The question is what INWARD CHANGE occurs. This is where salvation occurs and is determined.

How do you define "believe"? Even the demons believe and tremble.

In regards to your question, we are told to examine ourselves.

2Cr 13:5 Test yourselves {to see} if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?

Oh! That's 10!

How many scripture references do you have?

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

By "righteous" do you mean a positional standing before God?

We are made righteous in Christ. We have imputed to us the righteousness of Christ. In Christ we stand righteous before God. Correct.

You said I pointed out that you didn't mention the work of Holy Spirit in disciplining believers and bringing those who walking astray to repentance. Well, I'm not trying to assume or impose anything on you. I'm just asking a question.

Please explain what you see as the work of Holy Spirit in the life of a professing Christian that is showing no signs of salvation.

peace to youraying:

canaday, Fine, I get your point but remember, when I am responding in a thread about a specific topic I can't always offer an ENCYCLOPEDIA of information that is of equal volume. So before believing I have forgotten something please ask first as here.
The sign of salvation is Christ. The work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer is numerous. Baptism into the body of Christ, sanctifying the human body for a residence of the Shekinah glory, sealing the believer until the day or redemption, filling the believer as he yields to the spirit through the intake of Scripture and exercising faith in that Scripture, to illuminate the believer, to convict the believer...this is just some of the work but that should help reveal I understand the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.

 

[Amy.G]

We are made righteous in Christ. We have imputed to us the righteousness of Christ. In Christ we stand righteous before God. Correct.

canaday, Fine, I get your point but remember, when I am responding in a thread about a specific topic I can't always offer an ENCYCLOPEDIA of information that is of equal volume. So before believing I have forgotten something please ask first as here.
The sign of salvation is Christ. The work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer is numerous. Baptism into the body of Christ, sanctifying the human body for a residence of the Shekinah glory, sealing the believer until the day or redemption, filling the believer as he yields to the spirit through the intake of Scripture and exercising faith in that Scripture, to illuminate the believer, to convict the believer...this is just some of the work but that should help reveal I understand the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.

Is that a "complete" list? :laugh:

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

Ok, can we scratch the words "specific or certain" from this discussion? You are making way to much of this and not listening to what I'm saying.
Let's just say that a person is changed and will show it outwardly if they have been converted. I have given you 9 scripture references during our discussion to back my beliefs. You have given 0.

Please give us some scripture to prove what you are saying. Otherwise, it is nothing more than your opinion.

The problem isn't that I wasn't listening, it was that I was taking quite serious your emphatic statement and pressing for these SPECIFIC measurements. But sure, let's scratch it. I have given Scripture, you simply didn't accept its application. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

How do you define "believe"? Even the demons believe and tremble.

Interesting you bring this up. First, realize that Christ did NOT die for the demons. They CANNOT believe on Christ as Savior, He didn't die for them. What they do believe is that He is indeed THE SAVIOR but it is useless to them. They tremble at what they know. The human being is promised that upon believe he is saved, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". Belief is just what it is. If one is given the gospel pertaining to the Lord Jesus Christ and believe, they are saved.

In regards to your question, we are told to examine ourselves.

2Cr 13:5 Test yourselves {to see} if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?
Oh! That's 10!
How many scripture references do you have?

Of course we are to test ourselves. I don't disagree with this at all, it is clearly God's protocol. No one is contending we are to examine ourselves. We are discussing the CRITERION (in my case) and CRITERIA (in your case). And the way to examine yourself is once again "Did you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ", if so, after examining yourself regarding your faith if indeed you believed the gospel and did not attempt some other method of salvation, you are saved. Look at the passage. What does it say about EXAMINING yourself? What is the criterion? Jesus Christ! That and that alone.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

Is that a "complete" list? :laugh:

Ha ha ha...but hey...you know Q and his alleged verbosity...sounds tempting to formulate a complete list.

 

[canadyjd]

Ultimately, if they do not respond to Divine discipline they have the sin unto death. The last cycle of discipline for the believer living in chaotic rebellion toward God and unresponsive to His escalating forms of loving discipline.

Thank you for addressing the question. I agree, generally, with your analysis concerning an ever increasing discipline that could ultimately lead to the "sin unto death" if no repentance occurs.

Perhaps we can make greater progress here, as long as we stick to addressing scripture. I'll ask another question concerning scripture. Then, you ask about a certain passage and I promise to answer directly your question.

Hebrews 12:8 "But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons."

Isn't the author of Hebrews telling them that some of them who are claiming to be Christians, are in fact not really Christians. The way they can tell is that they are walking in sin and God is not disciplining them.

peace to youraying:

 

[Amy.G]

There is no question that we are saved by grace through faith and nothing else. I have never said otherwise. I am saying there is a change in a person when they are converted. How else can we examine ourselves if there has never been any change? If we stay the same what would be the comparison? If we stayed the same as the old man after conversion, were we really converted?

This is why we should examine ourselves.


2Cr 13:5 Test yourselves {to see} if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?

What does it mean to fail the test?

I'm still waiting for some scripture from you.

 

[npetreley]

I'm still waiting for some scripture from you.

(Removes the Jeopardy song tape and replaces it with "This is the song that never ends".)

 

[Amy.G]

(Removes the Jeopardy song tape and replaces it with "This is the song that never ends".)

This is the song that ne-ver ends...

It just goes on and on my friend....

la la la la .......................I forgot the words! :laugh:

 

[npetreley]

This is the song that ne-ver ends...

It just goes on and on my friend....

la la la la .......................I forgot the words! :laugh:

Some people started singing it not knowing what it was...

...etc...

 

[Amy.G]

Some people started singing it not knowing what it was...

...etc...

Yeah, that's it! Brings back fond memories of my son when he was little. :tear: (happy tears)

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

There is no question that we are saved by grace through faith and nothing else. I have never said otherwise. I am saying there is a change in a person when they are converted. How else can we examine ourselves if there has never been any change? If we stay the same what would be the comparison? If we stayed the same as the old man after conversion, were we really converted?

This is why we should examine ourselves.


2Cr 13:5 Test yourselves {to see} if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?

What does it mean to fail the test?

I'm still waiting for some scripture from you.

I gave you the single criterion for determining if you are saved or not. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved"/

The test is have you believed the gospel or are you seeking salvation through some other means. If you believe then YOU ARE IN THE FAITH.

Again, if the criterion is single, faith in Christ. YOU are the one contending there is some unknowable additional numbers of measurements.

First you start out that there are certain measurements. Then you say you meant SPECIFIC and then you want to scratch it. All the while I have repeatedly said the same thing: There is one criterion, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" Now that is what is called Scripture. That is the criterion. I don't hold to some mysterious multiple measures you hold to so I am not the one required to post additional Scriptures.

As far as the one you post about testing one's self, it only supports what I said. It states to examine if you are in the faith. One is in the faith...how? By believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Enough time for now has been devoted here. Sunday evening provides other fun at home than just posting so my attention will be elsewhere tonight. I have provided the Scripture clearly stating the criterion for determining one is saved is: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". I realize you aren't satisfied but that is your problem, but the fact is, is that it is Scripture and it is the single criterion.

But if you ever can tackle it here is my question you have yet to answer:

But that aside of course a person can be saved and show no outward signs. But this begs the question. How long is a person allowed to go without showing an outward sign before they have to be declared UNSAVED by themselves? You see the dilemma you are producing with such an arbitrary standard?

Christians go seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months or years without outward signs. So when is the cut-off? Every time you sin you certainly aren't showing an outward sign. So does that make you unsaved. Oh but you might say, you rebound from that and return to spirituality. Okay. But for whatever time you committed that sin you showed no sign but that of a sinner. So again, how much time is a person permitted to be in sin after salvation and not show an outward sign before they must be declared unsaved by themselves?

 

[Amy.G]

I gave you the single criterion for determining if you are saved or not. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved"/

The test is have you believed the gospel or are you seeking salvation through some other means. If you believe then YOU ARE IN THE FAITH.

Again, if the criterion is single, faith in Christ. YOU are the one contending there is some unknowable additional numbers of measurements.

First you start out that there are certain measurements. Then you say you meant SPECIFIC and then you want to scratch it. All the while I have repeatedly said the same thing: There is one criterion, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" Now that is what is called Scripture. That is the criterion. I don't hold to some mysterious multiple measures you hold to so I am not the one required to post additional Scriptures.

As far as the one you post about testing one's self, it only supports what I said. It states to examine if you are in the faith. One is in the faith...how? By believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Enough time for now has been devoted here. Sunday evening provides other fun at home than just posting so my attention will be elsewhere tonight. I have provided the Scripture clearly stating the criterion for determining one is saved is: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". I realize you aren't satisfied but that is your problem, but the fact is, is that it is Scripture and it is the single criterion.

I've know lots of people who "claim" to believe in the name of Christ and thought they were saved, but they weren't, by their own admission after they were truly saved. My husband is one of them, so I have personal experience.

You do need to provide scripture to support your claim that one can be saved and have zero outward signs.

 

[EdSutton]

I'm gonna' get in this, but for the life of me, I can't figure out why, unless I feel I'm a headache or two short! :BangHead: :BangHead:

Ed

 

[Amy.G]

I'm gonna' get in this, but for the life of me, I can't figure out why, unless I feel I'm a headache or two short! :BangHead: :BangHead:

Ed

Take an aspirin and jump on in! :laugh:

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

I've know lots of people who "claim" to believe in the name of Christ and thought they were saved, but they weren't, by their own admission after they were truly saved. My husband is one of them, so I have personal experience.

You do need to provide scripture to support your claim that one can be saved and have zero outward signs.

Okay, for the moment I will respond, the cat is sleeping (she is very sick and we are tending to her).
The Bible does not say CLAIM to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. If they weren't SAVED then they DIDN'T believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. It appears here that you are trying to prove that "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" isn't sufficient for certainty of salvation. But your scenario only proves that not believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is certainty of NOT being saved.

It says "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". It doesn't matter what someone CLAIMS, it matters what they believe. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". That is Scripture. The Scripture requires no outward act. It requires just what it says, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved".

But if you ever can tackle it here is my question you have yet to answer:

But that aside of course a person can be saved and show no outward signs. But this begs the question. How long is a person allowed to go without showing an outward sign before they have to be declared UNSAVED by themselves? You see the dilemma you are producing with such an arbitrary standard?

Christians go seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months or years without outward signs. So when is the cut-off? Every time you sin you certainly aren't showing an outward sign. So does that make you unsaved. Oh but you might say, you rebound from that and return to spirituality. Okay. But for whatever time you committed that sin you showed no sign but that of a sinner. So again, how much time is a person permitted to be in sin after salvation and not show an outward sign before they must be declared unsaved by themselves?

 

[Amy.G]

Okay, for the moment I will respond, the cat is sleeping (she is very sick and we are tending to her).
The Bible does not say CLAIM to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. If they weren't SAVED then they DIDN'T believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. It appears here that you are trying to prove that "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" isn't sufficient for certainty of salvation. But your scenario only proves that not believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is certainty of NOT being saved.

It says "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". It doesn't matter what someone CLAIMS, it matters what they believe. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". That is Scripture. The Scripture requires no outward act. It requires just what it says, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved".

But if you ever can tackle it here is my question you have yet to answer:

The outward signs are not what saves us. I never implied that. We are saved by faith in Christ plus nothing. But, if we have believed in the saving sense (not as the demons do), then there will be outward evidence. Not 100% of the time, because that would mean we are perfect, but there will be evidence. How can you be a new creature and continue to behave like the old man with NO change? How can you have the very Spirit of God indwelling you and have no change in your desires or thoughts? The Spirit convicts us of sin for example. If you have no sensitivity to sin and it's offense to God, then the Spirit is not in you. These are evidences of the presence of God in you. And He is in you because you are a child of God by faith.

I would still like to see some scripture stating that there may not be a change in a person after conversion.