Doctrinal Defintions of Faith

[EdSutton]

The "P" in the flower sounds awfully like a works based salvation to me. If we persevere...we are saved. If we don't...we never were. The hinge of salvation is our performance.

You have hit the nail dead center with your head, webdog. :BangHead: :thumbs:

However, the use of a hammer might help keep down the headaches, though. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

He calls it what I call it "preservation of the saints". Persevering is what we do. Preservation is what God does. OSAS does not fall under perseverance, rather God's preservation of His own.

Ed

 

[Amy.G]

Originally Posted by webdog
The "P" in the flower sounds awfully like a works based salvation to me. If we persevere...we are saved. If we don't...we never were. The hinge of salvation is our performance.

You have hit the nail dead center with your head, webdog. :BangHead: :thumbs:

However, the use of a hammer might help keep down the headaches, though. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

That is not what the P means. Replace it with preservation and you'll have it right. God preserves those who are His. I think all of us OSAS folks believe that.
We persevere because He preserves us.

 

[webdog]

That is not what the P means. Replace it with preservation and you'll have it right. God preserves those who are His. I think all of us OSAS folks believe that.
We persevere because He preserves us.

From wikipedia...

The Reformed tradition has consistently seen the doctrine of perseverance as a natural consequence to its general scheme of predestination in which God has chosen some men and women unto salvation and has cleared them of their guilty status by atoning for their sins through Jesus's sacrifice. According to these Calvinists, God has irresistibly drawn the elect to put their faith in himself for salvation by regenerating their hearts and convincing them of their need. Therefore, they continue, since God has made satisfaction for the sins of the elect, they can no longer be condemned for them, and through the help of the Holy Spirit, they must necessarily persevere as Christians and in the end be saved.
Traditional Calvinists also believe that all who are born again and justified before God necessarily and inexorably proceed to sanctification. Indeed, failure to proceed to sanctification in their view is evidence that the person in question was not truly saved to begin with. Proponents of this doctrine distinguish between an action and the consequences of an action, and suggest that after God has regenerated someone, the person's will cannot reverse its course. It is argued that God has changed that person in ways that are outside of his or her own ability to alter fundamentally, and he or she will therefore persevere in the faith.
Theologian Charles Hodge summarizes the thrust of the Calvinist doctrine (Systematic Theology, 3.16.8):
Perseverance...is due to the purpose of God [in saving men and thereby bringing glory to his name], to the work of Christ [in cancelling men's debt and earning their righteousness ], to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit [in sealing men in salvation and leading them in God's ways], and to the primal source of all, the infinite, mysterious, and immutable love of God. On a practical level, Calvinists do not claim to know who is elect and who is not, and the only guide they have are the verbal testimony and good works (or "fruit") of each individual. Any who "fall away" (that is, do not persevere unto death) must not have been truly converted to begin with, though Calvinists don't claim to know with certainty who did and who did not persevere.

 

[npetreley]

At least i'm not trying to sell my book or web site. (Judging motives, see Matt. 7:1-2)

LM

What is that link at the bottom of every one of your posts that takes one to your web page where they're presented with a big graphic of a book, under which it says, "Purchase your copy at Amazon?"

And it's purchase your copy of what? It's a copy of a book on the only topic you seem to know how to post about.

It's none of my business, but if it were, I think BB should start charging you money for advertising on the site.

 

[webdog]

I see npetreley is into judging motives, too... :tear:

 

[Amy.G]

From your Wiki article:

It is argued that God has changed that person in ways that are outside of his or her own ability to alter fundamentally, and he or she will therefore persevere in the faith.

Don't you believe a Christian perseveres in the faith? If not, then you must believe a person can lose or give up their salvation.

 

[npetreley]

From your Wiki article:

Don't you belielve a Christian perseveres in the faith? If not, then you must believe a person can lose or give up their salvation.

For those who believe in perserverence of the saints, it is still evidence of salvation, it isn't works toward salvation. It is what God does, not what man does. Free-willism is not only about what man does, it is a slap in the face of God -- "You ain't the boss of me, God, I've got my OWN free will".

 

[webdog]

From your Wiki article:


Don't you belielve a Christian perseveres in the faith? If not, then you must believe a person can lose or give up their salvation.

I don't see someone who dies in sin as not persevering in the faith. I see plenty of believers who struggle with sin, as Ed has pointed out. We don't lose the old nature. It remains a constant battle, and we can succumb to the old nature, and sadly, die in that state. I witnessed this first hand with the death of my sister a couple years ago.

 

[Amy.G]

For those who believe in perserverence of the saints, it is still evidence of salvation, it isn't works toward salvation. It is what God does, not what man does. Free-willism is not only about what man does, it is a slap in the face of God -- "You ain't the boss of me, God, I've got my OWN free will".

Yes, it is God's work done after salvation. I have always believed this since I became a Christian 25 years ago.

God does the preserving, keeping, holding, protecting...whatever word you want to give it. He keeps us saved.

 

[webdog]

I'm sure glad npetreley doesn't misrepresent the non cal position, as he is always crying we do to him

 

[Amy.G]

I don't see someone who dies in sin as not persevering in the faith. I see plenty of believers who struggle with sin, as Ed has pointed out. We don't lose the old nature. It remains a constant battle, and we can succumb to the old nature, and sadly, die in that state. I witnessed this first hand with the death of my sister a couple years ago.

You are going off in left field now. :laugh:

I never ever said anything about not having the old nature or that we stop sinning when we are saved. I have agreed with you many times on that.

The P in TULIP does not mean we become sinless when we're saved. It means God keeps us saved. We persevere (keep the faith) because of the work of God in us. No one can snatch us out of His hand.

 

[webdog]

You are going off in left field now. :laugh:

I never ever said anything about not having the old nature or that we stop sinning when we are saved. I have agreed with you many times on that.

The P in TULIP does not mean we become sinless when we're saved. It means God keeps us saved. We persevere (keep the faith) because of the work of God in us. No one can snatch us out of His hand.

I tend to drift from center field every now and then

I don't see someone who dies in a sinful state as someone who didn't persevere...what "P" teaches.

 

[Amy.G]

I tend to drift from center field every now and then

I don't see someone who dies in a sinful state as someone who didn't persevere...what "P" teaches.

The P doesn't mean or say that we persevere in a sinless state until we die. That is your interpretation.
It means persevere in FAITH. I even used your own quote from Wiki to show you that. Why are you being so hard headed?

The P was in direct opposition to the Arminian teaching that you can lose your salvation. That's why the TULIP was written, to refute what was considered the heresy of Arminian teachings.

Calvinism - God keeps those who have been saved, saved.

Arminianism - Keeping your salvation is up to you, by keeping the commandments and not sinning.

Someone with more knowlege than me in Reformed doctrine may tell me I'm wrong, but I think I've got it right.

 

[webdog]

The P doesn't mean or say that we persevere in a sinless state until we die. That is your interpretation.
It means persevere in FAITH. I even used your own quote from Wiki to show you that. Why are you being so hard headed?

The P was in direct opposition to the Arminian teaching that you can lose your salvation. That's why the TULIP was written, to refute what was considered the heresy of Arminian teachings.

Calvinism - God keeps those who have been saved, saved.

Arminianism - Keeping your salvation is up to you, by keeping the commandments and not sinning.

Someone with more knowlege than me in Reformed doctrine may tell me I'm wrong, but I think I've got it right.

I guess you missed this...

Any who "fall away" (that is, do not persevere unto death) must not have been truly converted to begin with, though Calvinists don't claim to know with certainty who did and who did not persevere.

What you believe is what I believe, but it is not the doctrine of perseverance of the saints.

(I am hard headed, btw. Want to see? :BangHead: )

 

[Lou Martuneac]

...have you spoken to John McArthur? I appologize in advance if you have given John the opportunity to defend his position. It would be biblical of you to do that. Have you? Awaiting your response.

I made repeated attempts before and after my book came out to discuss the issue with JM. The last was during my public LS debates with his personal assistant, Nathan Busenitz.

I was informed by Nathan that JM does not and will not repsond to any questions regarding his LS interpretation of the Gospel.

OK?


LM

 

[webdog]

I made repeated attempts before and after my book came out to discuss the issue with JM. The last was during my public LS debates with his personal assistant, Nathan Busenitz.

I was informed by Nathan that JM does not and will not repsond to any questions regarding his LS interpretation of the Gospel.

OK?


LM

Why? I mean, if he believes in the Gospel (good news), why wouldn't he want to discuss it? Afraid he'll not sell any study Bibles? (just kidding )

 

[Amy.G]

I guess you missed this...

Any who "fall away" (that is, do not persevere unto death) must not have been truly converted to begin with, though Calvinists don't claim to know with certainty who did and who did not persevere.

No, I didn't miss it. I believe that. Anyone who does not keep the faith, never had the faith to begin with. They are self deceived and never made a true profession of faith.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I made repeated attempts before and after my book came out to discuss the issue with JM. The last was during my public LS debates with his personal assistant, Nathan Busenitz.

I was informed by Nathan that JM does not and will not repsond to any questions regarding his LS interpretation of the Gospel.

OK?


LM

Please accept my appology sir. Will you forgive me?

I would be so interested in John's response.

 

[webdog]

No, I didn't miss it. I believe that. Anyone who does not keep the faith, never had the faith to begin with. They are self deceived and never made a true profession of faith.

That has NOTHING to do with "keeping the faith". Amy, I was ALMOST a full blown 5 pointer...I know what the "P" stands for.