Doctrinal View

[Van]

Because salvation is through or on the basis of faith, the gift in view in Ephesians 2:8-9, must be salvation by grace and not works. There is no support anywhere in scripture for the Calvinist fiction of the "gift of faith" via irresistible grace. None, nada, zip.

 

[Yeshua1]

Because salvation is through or on the basis of faith, the gift in view in Ephesians 2:8-9, must be salvation by grace and not works. There is no support anywhere in scripture for the Calvinist fiction of the "gift of faith" via irresistible grace. None, nada, zip.

We have no intrinsic saving faith in us being spiritual dead!

 

[atpollard]

Did I say the pronoun referred to the Greek word translated "saved?" Nope, I said the gift was "salvation." So more deflection on display.

You are telling a fib, sir. That is NOT what you said and I DID NOT deflect. What you said was (verbatim):

I agree, the Word of God means what it says:
Ephesians 2:8-9 says the gift of God is salvation, not our faith.

So your claim was three-fold:

1. You agree that the Word of God means what it says.
2. Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches that the gift of God is salvation.
3. Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches that the gift of God is not our faith.

To your three claims, I offered the following response (also verbatim):

[Ephesians 2:8 NASB] For by grace you have been saved [G4982] through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift [G1435] of God;

“saved” (σεσῳσμένοι) in that sentence is in the Masculine gender.
“gift” (δῶρον) in that sentence is in the Neuter gender.

In Greek grammar, for the “gift” to be “saved” and only “saved” in that sentence, then “gift” should have been in the Masculine gender. Ephesians 2:8-9 does not say, and cannot say, what you claim it says.

I responded to your 3 points with a claim and a conclusion.
My claim:

• Saved is masculine
• Gift is neuter
• Gender matches in Greek grammar.

My conclusion:

• Ephesians 2:8 cannot be saying what you claim, that Salvation is the gift from God and faith is not a gift from God. The Greek grammar will not permit that as a valid reading of the sentence.

For you to claim that a specific verse (Ephesians 2:8) proves a statement that you made (“the gift of God is salvation, not our faith”) and me to respond with proof that that specific verse CANNOT mean what you claim it says, is anything but “more deflection on display”.

However, for you to utterly dismiss my exegesis of the verse with a wave of the hand, a ‘taint so’ and a false accusation most certainly IS DEFLECTION ON DISPLAY.

So feel free to exegete the verse and illuminate my error if you think I have made one, or choose a different “pet scripture” to hang your “pet theology” from.

 

[Yeshua1]

You are telling a fib, sir. That is NOT what you said and I DID NOT deflect. What you said was (verbatim):




So your claim was three-fold:

1. You agree that the Word of God means what it says.
2. Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches that the gift of God is salvation.
3. Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches that the gift of God is not our faith.

To your three claims, I offered the following response (also verbatim):


I responded to your 3 points with a claim and a conclusion.
My claim:

• Saved is masculine
• Gift is neuter
• Gender matches in Greek grammar.

My conclusion:

• Ephesians 2:8 cannot be saying what you claim, that Salvation is the gift from God and faith is not a gift from God. The Greek grammar will not permit that as a valid reading of the sentence.

For you to claim that a specific verse (Ephesians 2:8) proves a statement that you made (“the gift of God is salvation, not our faith”) and me to respond with proof that that specific verse CANNOT mean what you claim it says, is anything but “more deflection on display”.

However, for you to utterly dismiss my exegesis of the verse with a wave of the hand, a ‘taint so’ and a false accusation most certainly IS DEFLECTION ON DISPLAY.

So feel free to exegete the verse and illuminate my error if you think I have made one, or choose a different “pet scripture” to hang your “pet theology” from.

Again the basic problem is that you are appealing to the Greek text itself!

 

[atpollard]

Again the basic problem is that you are appealing to the Greek text itself!

I have little choice. Contrary to popular belief, the Apostle Paul did not read and write in King James English.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says that the whole shebang is a gift from God ... “saved”, “grace” and “Faith” ... the whole clause together. That is the only meaning that the actual words written by Paul will support.

 

[Van]

You are telling a fib, sir.
My conclusion:

• Ephesians 2:8 cannot be saying what you claim, that Salvation is the gift from God and faith is not a gift from God. The Greek grammar will not permit that as a valid reading of the sentence.

For you to claim that a specific verse (Ephesians 2:8) proves a statement that you made (“the gift of God is salvation, not our faith”) and me to respond with proof that that specific verse CANNOT mean what you claim it says, is anything but “more deflection on display”.

Once again you have addressed my behavior. Your constant use of ad hominem shows you have no meritorious argument.
The Greek Grammar allows the gift to be salvation. So more deflection on display.

Salvation (the gift) is through or on the basis of faith. Pretty simple.
Here is a snippet from the Pulpit commentary:

And that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Which of the two things is meant - salvation or faith? The grammatical structure and the analogy of the passage favor the former view, "Your salvation is not of yourselves," though many able men have taken the latter. The apostle is so anxious to bring out the great distinguishing doctrine of grace that he puts it in all lights, affirms it positively, contrasts it with its opposite, and emphasizes it by repetition. It is a gift, not a purchase; a free gift, without money and without price; what would never have been yours, but for the generosity of God. It is very usual in the New Testament thus to represent salvation; cf. our Lord's words to Nicodemus (John 3:16); to the woman of Samaria (John 4:14); St. Paul's "Thanks be to God for his unspeakable gift" (2 Corinthians 9:15); "The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23); and 1 John 5:11, "God gave unto us eternal life, and the life is in his Son." This usage confirms the view that it is not merely faith, but the whole work and person of Christ which faith receives, that is meant here as the "gift of God."

 

[Yeshua1]

Once again you have addressed my behavior. Your constant use of ad hominem shows you have no meritorious argument.
The Greek Grammar allows the gift to be salvation. So more deflection on display.

Salvation (the gift) is through or on the basis of faith. Pretty simple.
Here is a snippet from the Pulpit commentary:

And that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Which of the two things is meant - salvation or faith? The grammatical structure and the analogy of the passage favor the former view, "Your salvation is not of yourselves," though many able men have taken the latter. The apostle is so anxious to bring out the great distinguishing doctrine of grace that he puts it in all lights, affirms it positively, contrasts it with its opposite, and emphasizes it by repetition. It is a gift, not a purchase; a free gift, without money and without price; what would never have been yours, but for the generosity of God. It is very usual in the New Testament thus to represent salvation; cf. our Lord's words to Nicodemus (John 3:16); to the woman of Samaria (John 4:14); St. Paul's "Thanks be to God for his unspeakable gift" (2 Corinthians 9:15); "The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23); and 1 John 5:11, "God gave unto us eternal life, and the life is in his Son." This usage confirms the view that it is not merely faith, but the whole work and person of Christ which faith receives, that is meant here as the "gift of God."

The Greek construction being used would refer to all mentioned by Paul as being part of the gift of God, even saving faith!

 

[Van]

The Greek construction being used would refer to all mentioned by Paul as being part of the gift of God, even saving faith!

Calvinist push the well known fallacy non-stop. Ephesians 2:8 teaches the gift is salvation. The grammar precludes "saved," "grace," or "faith" being the antecedent of the pronoun because the genders differ. Faith cannot be included because the gift is received (obtained) on the basis of faith. It is a lock

 

[Yeshua1]

Calvinist push the well known fallacy non-stop. Ephesians 2:8 teaches the gift is salvation. The grammar precludes "saved," "grace," or "faith" being the antecedent of the pronoun because the genders differ. Faith cannot be included because the gift is received (obtained) on the basis of faith. It is a lock

Faith and salvation are both the gifts of God!As saving faith results in salvation!

 

[Van]

Faith and salvation are both the gifts of God!As saving faith results in salvation!

Utter nonsense posted to hide the truth.
Calvinist push the well known fallacy non-stop. Ephesians 2:8 teaches the gift is salvation. The grammar precludes "saved," "grace," or "faith" being the antecedent of the pronoun because the genders differ. Faith cannot be included because the gift is received (obtained) on the basis of faith. It is a lock

 

[Yeshua1]

Utter nonsense posted to hide the truth.
Calvinist push the well known fallacy non-stop. Ephesians 2:8 teaches the gift is salvation. The grammar precludes "saved," "grace," or "faith" being the antecedent of the pronoun because the genders differ. Faith cannot be included because the gift is received (obtained) on the basis of faith. It is a lock

Again refers to both faith and salvation are the gifts of God to the redeemed!

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Of Free Will

Who was the first created being to invoke his own/free will?

 

[Van]

Again refers to both faith and salvation are the gifts of God to the redeemed!

Repeating falsehood does not enlighten, but it does help if hiding truth is the agenda.

Calvinist push the well known fallacy non-stop. Ephesians 2:8 teaches the gift is salvation. The grammar precludes "saved," "grace," or "faith" being the antecedent of the pronoun because the genders differ. Faith cannot be included because the gift is received (obtained) on the basis of faith. It is a lock

 

[Van]

Who was the first created being to invoke his own/free will?

We make plans but God directs our steps, thus God allows us autonomous thoughts and actions, but only so far as He allows. He can and does intervene and restrict our options, such as hardening hearts to cause some to continue to reject Christ for a time. Proverbs 16:9, Romans 11:7

Thus the Biblical Doctrine is that the Fallen have "Limited Spiritual Ability" able to understand "spiritual milk" but not "spiritual solid food (meat).

So in answer to your question, I would say the first fallen were Adam and Eve, and once the consequence of Adam's volitional sin was imposed (eyes opened) they would have made autonomous choices of will within the purview allowed by God.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

So in answer to your question, I would say the first fallen were Adam and Eve

Lucifer was the first created being to invoke his own/free(?) will. Satan in the person of Lucifer initiated self/own/free will. Yet, it is wrongly supposed that the Holy God granted mankind free will. How easily, completely and fully Satan deceives man.

Isa 14:12 KJV - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 KJV - For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 KJV - I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 KJV - Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

It should be clear, based on scripture, that free will originated with Lucifer and is a lie of Satan.

Martin Luther on the bondage of the will : to the venerable mister Erasmus of Rotterdam, 1525

Free Will a Slave by Charles Haddon Spurgeon

For other support for my position, read the two documents above.

 

[Van]

Lucifer was the first created being to invoke his own/free(?) will. Satan in the person of Lucifer initiated self/own/free will. Yet, it is wrongly supposed that the Holy God granted mankind free will. How easily, completely and fully Satan deceives man.

Isa 14:12 KJV - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 KJV - For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 KJV - I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 KJV - Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

It should be clear, based on scripture, that free will originated with Lucifer and is a lie of Satan.
Martin Luther on the bondage of the will : to the venerable mister Erasmus of Rotterdam, 1525
Free Will a Slave by Charles Haddon Spurgeon
For other support for my position, read the two documents above.

There is absolutely no support anywhere in scripture for "total spiritual inability" as a result of the Fall. Changing to topic to Satan might seem like a good trick, but it sidesteps the issue:

We make plans but God directs our steps, thus God allows us autonomous thoughts and actions, but only so far as He allows. He can and does intervene and restrict our options, such as hardening hearts to cause some to continue to reject Christ for a time. Proverbs 16:9, Romans 11:7

Thus the Biblical Doctrine is that the Fallen have "Limited Spiritual Ability" able to understand "spiritual milk" but not "spiritual solid food (meat).

So in answer to your question, I would say the first fallen humans were Adam and Eve, and once the consequence of Adam's volitional sin was imposed (eyes opened) they would have made autonomous choices of will within the purview allowed by God.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Of Justification - Refers to being made "right" with God, thus our sin burden was removed and placed on Christ ( Isaiah 53:4-8, Colossians 2:13-14 ) and we, as believers, were reconciled to God by the death of His Son ( Romans 5:10 ) at the cross, not when we believed and were sealed by the Holy Ghost ( Ephesians 1:13 ). We as believers were spiritually and physically placed in Christ when we believed and we undergo the circumcision of Christ, but were chosen to that placing before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ).

Of Adoption - Our adoption comes in two phases. The first "phase" occurs when we are called by the Gospel and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who is the "earnest" or down-payment of our inheritance ( Ephesians 1:13. In this first "phase" we start to "become" or resemble ( John 1:12 ) the spiritual children of God when we are regenerated ( Romans 8:1-17, James 1:18, 1 John 3:1-3 ) or experience the new birth. We are new creatures in Christ, at the heart level ( 2 Corinthians 5:17 ).The spirit of God within us confirms that we are now the sons of God ( Romans 8:14-16 ). During the second "phase", we receive our glorified bodies and the adoption becomes complete ( Romans 8:18-25, 2 Corinthians 5:1-7, Ephesians 4:30, Colossians 3:4, 1 John 3:2 ).

Of "Saving" Faith - God credits His gift of faith ( Ephesians 2:8 ) as righteousness. This gift, which was authored and finished ( perfected ) by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ) and which is the evidence of His work within us ( Hebrews 11:1 ) does not determine who is saved and who is not, but is only an indicator of God having placed His favor on us as His elect. This faith is from the heart ( which is a new heart ), given to us by the Lord ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26 ), and is fully committed and devoted to Christ. Believing the right doctrines does not determine our destiny, but is reflective of our being His sheep. He has given to us a Teacher who will show us all things ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ) and lead us into all truth ( John 16:13 ) and, while we start out as babes in Christ, through much study of His word we go from milk to meat ( 1 Peter 2:2, 2 Timothy 2:15, Hebrews 5:14 ).

( To be continued )

Two 'phases 'of adoption ..This is post hock rationalization of the Calvernist mind set .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Of Justification - Refers to being made "right" with God, thus our sin burden was removed and placed on Christ ( Isaiah 53:4-8, Colossians 2:13-14 ) and we, as believers, were reconciled to God by the death of His Son ( Romans 5:10 ) at the cross, not when we believed and were sealed by the Holy Ghost ( Ephesians 1:13 ). We as believers were spiritually and physically placed in Christ when we believed and we undergo the circumcision of Christ, but were chosen to that placing before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ).

Of Adoption - Our adoption comes in two phases. The first "phase" occurs when we are called by the Gospel and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who is the "earnest" or down-payment of our inheritance ( Ephesians 1:13. In this first "phase" we start to "become" or resemble ( John 1:12 ) the spiritual children of God when we are regenerated ( Romans 8:1-17, James 1:18, 1 John 3:1-3 ) or experience the new birth. We are new creatures in Christ, at the heart level ( 2 Corinthians 5:17 ).The spirit of God within us confirms that we are now the sons of God ( Romans 8:14-16 ). During the second "phase", we receive our glorified bodies and the adoption becomes complete ( Romans 8:18-25, 2 Corinthians 5:1-7, Ephesians 4:30, Colossians 3:4, 1 John 3:2 ).

Of "Saving" Faith - God credits His gift of faith ( Ephesians 2:8 ) as righteousness. This gift, which was authored and finished ( perfected ) by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ) and which is the evidence of His work within us ( Hebrews 11:1 ) does not determine who is saved and who is not, but is only an indicator of God having placed His favor on us as His elect. This faith is from the heart ( which is a new heart ), given to us by the Lord ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26 ), and is fully committed and devoted to Christ. Believing the right doctrines does not determine our destiny, but is reflective of our being His sheep. He has given to us a Teacher who will show us all things ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ) and lead us into all truth ( John 16:13 ) and, while we start out as babes in Christ, through much study of His word we go from milk to meat ( 1 Peter 2:2, 2 Timothy 2:15, Hebrews 5:14 ).

( To be continued )

When Jesus died on the cross you were still lost and an enemy of God . Read ephesians 2 . We are only reconciled by receiving the atonement. Romans 5 .11

 

[Wesley Briggman]

There is absolutely no support anywhere in scripture for "total spiritual inability" as a result of the Fall.

Eph 2:1 KJV - And you [hath he quickened], who were dead(G3498) in trespasses and sins;
Col 2:13 KJV - And you, being dead(G3498) in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The KJV translates Strong's G3498 in the following manner: dead .
“…spiritually dead
destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
inactive as respects doing right”

Being declared dead in trespasses and sins by God results in "total spiritual inability".
Where you ever in such a state?

Thus the Biblical Doctrine is that the Fallen have "Limited Spiritual Ability" able to understand "spiritual milk" but not "spiritual solid food (meat).

See scripture above addressing being dead in trespasses and sin.

So in answer to your question, I would say the first fallen humans were Adam and Eve,[/QUOTE

I agree, Adam and Eve were the first fallen human beings. However, they were not the first created beings to rebel against God.

 

[Van]

Eph 2:1 KJV - And you [hath he quickened], who were dead(G3498) in trespasses and sins;
Col 2:13 KJV - And you, being dead(G3498) in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The KJV translates Strong's G3498 in the following manner: dead .
“…spiritually dead
destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
inactive as respects doing right”

Being declared dead in trespasses and sins by God results in "total spiritual inability".
Where you ever in such a state?

See scripture above addressing being dead in trespasses and sin.

Calvinists redefine "being spiritual dead" as being totally without spiritual ability. It is a fiction. And neither verse above supports the fiction.

Ephesians 2:1 says we are made alive (united with Christ) from a spiritually dead state (separated from Christ.) It does not indicate in the slightest what abiliities or inabilities our "spirituall dead" state imposed. This sort of non-germane citation demonstrates a lack of any actual support in scripture.

Colossians 2:13 Once again the verse says we were made alive when we were united with Christ (together with Him). But the verse does not address our abilities or inabilities while spiritually separated from Christ. More misdirection and smoke screed.

There is absolutely no support anywhere in scripture for "total spiritual inability" as a result of the Fall.

We make plans but God directs our steps, thus God allows us autonomous thoughts and actions, but only so far as He allows. He can and does intervene and restrict our options, such as hardening hearts to cause some to continue to reject Christ for a time. Proverbs 16:9, Romans 11:7

Thus the Biblical Doctrine is that the Fallen have "Limited Spiritual Ability" able to understand "spiritual milk" but not "spiritual solid food (meat).