Doctrine of devils

[whetstone]

Hey guys. Been away for awhile. how ya been?

My brother is at Pensacola Christian College and he has a teacher named Chris Raper who said something the other day along the lines of:

"The idea that God would choose some people for heaven and some for hell is the most evil doctrine the devil ever came up with."

Your thoughts?

 

[Monergist]

If man will give account for every idle word that proceeds out of his mouth, I feel confident that one day Mr. Raper will have to stand before God and give account for this blasphemous nonsense.

 

[Helen]

Your brother's teacher is correct. Calvinism/Reformed doctrine makes mash of God's character, His sovereignty, and His written Word -- among other things.

 

[4His_glory]

Originally posted by Helen:
Your brother's teacher is correct. Calvinism/Reformed doctrine makes mash of God's character, His sovereignty, and His written Word -- among other things.

No, his brothers teacher is speaking from emotions rahter than exegeting God's Word. I believe God choose men for salvation, His Word is clear on that.

It is the the man-centered Arminian, "Finnyesque" theology of many Baptist Churches that mar's the character of God. Any theology the elevates man's sovereingty over God's is dangerous.

By the way Helen, since you believe that Calvinism is the doctrine of delvils, does that make all Calvinists unsaved? Sounds like thats what your saying to me.

 

[Helen]

I'm not judging anyone. I am not fit to do that, not being God. However, if you check your Bible, you will find that the predestination sections have to do with the fact that believers will all be conformed to Christ and that salvation is by grace. These issues were decided beforehand by God, and thus were predestined. However WHO would believe or not believe was given to man, for each to choose his own way. God knew, but that is not the same as deciding for a person.

If God had already decided the fate of each person, regardless of that person's own mind or desire, then "Choose this day whom you will serve" and hundreds of passages like it are all nonsense.

Every religion in the world is predicated on the idea that something is wrong with man and needs fixing/exalting/realizing...whatever. So the entire idea of Calvinism that unregenerate men and women have no consciousness of sin or wrongdoing or of not being right or good enough is false from the get-go. People all over the world struggle to somehow better themselves, if not spiritually then at least mentally or physically.

The good news of Christianity is that the work has been done for us, through Christ. "Come to me all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest" is addressing all these people who are struggling to better themselves via the law or another religion or whatever. This invitation is not being given to people who cannot hear it, but to everyone, for everyone CAN hear it.

It's just that so many choose to do for themselves rather than give everything up to Christ. It is not that they don't want to be good or have no idea of good. It is not even that they don't realize they are desperately in need of some kind of help. It is that they would rather try to continue to help themselves rather than submit to Christ and allow Him to take over their broken lives.

These are fully spiritually conscious people. Their spiritual death refers to their separation from God, not to their spiritual unconsciousness!

Calvinism denies all of this and declares that only those whom God has chosen beforehand can even respond to Him. And even then they have no choice, but were predestined to respond, which makes their response worth no more than a programmed robot's response.

That is not how the Bible considers man. And a God who chooses ahead of time the few He will save is not how the Bible presents God.

 

[4His_glory]

Hi Helen,

I'm not judging anyone.

But ealier you agreed with Dan's teacher is calling predestination a doctrine of Satan. I asked what about those who believe in it, if you are willing to make this claim the certainly you must have an opinion of those who believe the doctrines of grace.

if you check your Bible, you will find that the predestination sections have to do with the fact that believers will all be conformed to Christ and that salvation is by grace.

Amen salvation is by grace. Believers are predestined to become comformed to Christ's image, but obviously that would imply salvation as well, therefore predesitnation does have to do with salvation. Not to mention various passages deal with the fact that God did choose believers before the creation of the world.

However WHO would believe or not believe was given to man, for each to choose his own way. God knew, but that is not the same as deciding for a person.

I agree that a person must repent and belive, but will man left to himsefl make that choice? The emphatic wittness of Scripture is NO! Therefore God in His grace enables sinners to believe.

If God had already decided the fate of each person, regardless of that person's own mind or desire, then "Choose this day whom you will serve" and hundreds of passages like it are all nonsense.

This passage is irrelevent to the disscussion, besides I don't see how it condradicts the fact that God for-ordains events.

Every religion in the world is predicated on the idea that something is wrong with man and needs fixing/exalting/realizing...whatever. So the entire idea of Calvinism that unregenerate men and women have no consciousness of sin or wrongdoing or of not being right or good enough is false from the get-go.

Clearly you don't understand what Calvinist believe, and what the Scriptures teach in this instance. Every religion is wrong because it starts with the premies that though there is a problem, I can fix it myself, thus denying the depravity that exists in the heart and furthur damning themselves before God.

The good news of Christianity is that the work has been done for us, through Christ. "Come to me all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest" is addressing all these people who are struggling to better themselves via the law or another religion or whatever. This invitation is not being given to people who cannot hear it, but to everyone, for everyone CAN hear it.

The if everyone hears, how come not all believe, though we compell them to come and find rest in Christ?

These are fully spiritually conscious people. Their spiritual death refers to their separation from God, not to their spiritual unconsciousness!

A person separated from God does not have any spiritual understanding. Paul said the natural man does not recieve the things of the Sprit, its impossible with out the quickening of the Holy Ghost.

Calvinism denies all of this and declares that only those whom God has chosen beforehand can even respond to Him. And even then they have no choice, but were predestined to respond, which makes their response worth no more than a programmed robot's response.

Again you don't understand Calvinism.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by whetstone:
Hey guys. Been away for awhile. how ya been?

My brother is at Pensacola Christian College and he has a teacher named Chris Raper who said something the other day along the lines of:

"The idea that God would choose some people for heaven and some for hell is the most evil doctrine the devil ever came up with."

Your thoughts?

Unfortunately that kind of statement is typical nowadays. When the blind lead the blind they both fall into the ditch. Hopefully your brother is not blind.

R. C. Sproul offers a sermon series entitled "Chosen By God". The first message in the series is called "Everyone Believes This Doctrine". He goes through church history showing that every branch of Christianity has held to some view of predestination. Those who deny any view of predestination are denying historic Christianity.

If I were your brother I would probably ask that teacher something like "didn't God choose believers for heaven and unbelievers for hell" and see what he says. I have actually heard people try to make the argument that God didn't intend for any person to go to hell. Only a false 'god' does things that turn out wrong.

 

[Helen]

Whatever, God clearly says, through Peter, that He does not wish for one to perish, but all to come to repentance.

If he predestined those who would be saved, then His desires and His actions are at odds with each other.

4His_Glory -- Eve is not said to have been responsible for the entrance of sin into the world because she was deceived. I would think, and maybe I am wrong, that the same would apply to many who believe Calvinism to be true. They are deceived. The teachers, however, may find themselves in a very uncomfortable position when face to face with Christ.

In the meantime, you seem to refer to 'doctrines of grace' as though that were somehow exclusive to Calvinism. Hardly. I am saved by grace. God's grace. And I am most assuredly not a Calvinist!

It is also a severe error in logic to presume that because believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ that certain people are then predestined to become believers. There is no connection at all there. It is like saying that the winning team in the Olympics is predestined to stand on the tallest podium and that that 'predestination' also means that one certain team will have to win. Saying what will happen to the winners does not determine WHO the winners will be.

Same with salvation. Those who believe are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ through the agency and power of the Holy Spirit. But who the believers are is not a matter of predestination. Foreknowledge, yes. Predestination, no.

God leaves NO man to himself when it comes to repenting and believing, but presents every man alive with enough truth to either follow or reject (Romans 1). It is up to each man to follow that truth or suppress it. No one is forced or created to do either. Those who follow what truth God has presented them with will be led by Him to Christ Jesus, who will turn none away. Calvinists go for the second half of that and completely ignore the first part, which is a major theme of Paul's writings. Half a gospel is not the gospel at all, really, but a perversion of it.

To answer your question, not everyone who hears believes because they have a choice in the matter. We can bless God with our submission or curse Him with our independent rebellion. The choice is ENTIRELY ours.

The work is completely done by Him, but the choice to accept or reject is ours.

A person separated from God may not have any spiritual understanding, but he does have spiritual thirst. And that is all that is necessary.

And yes, I do understand Calvinism. For several years I was the head deaf interpreter for Sproul here on the west coast. It was his material that got me studying the Bible intensely, looking for the truth of this matter.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by Helen:
Whatever, God clearly says, through Peter, that He does not wish for one to perish, but all to come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9...the most misquoted verse by anti-Calvinists. Read the verse again and this time leave the word 'usward' in it.

If he predestined those who would be saved, then His desires and His actions are at odds with each other.

You are trying to make sense of God rather than take Him at His word.

4His_Glory -- Eve is not said to have been responsible for the entrance of sin into the world because she was deceived. I would think, and maybe I am wrong, that the same would apply to many who believe Calvinism to be true. They are deceived. The teachers, however, may find themselves in a very uncomfortable position when face to face with Christ.

Which teachers? The ones who have stood up and defended orthodox Christianity like Bunyan, Spurgeon, Edwards, Livingston et al?

In the meantime, you seem to refer to 'doctrines of grace' as though that were somehow exclusive to Calvinism. Hardly. I am saved by grace. God's grace. And I am most assuredly not a Calvinist!

If you do not believe in what is today called Calvinism your salvation is the result of your own will not God's will.

It is also a severe error in logic to presume that because believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ that certain people are then predestined to become believers.

1st of all- logic doesn't dictate doctrine, scripture does.

2nd of all- it is actually illogical to believe God would predestine souls to righteousness without first predestining them to salvation.

There is no connection at all there. It is like saying that the winning team in the Olympics is predestined to stand on the tallest podium and that that 'predestination' also means that one certain team will have to win. Saying what will happen to the winners does not determine WHO the winners will be.

Using man-made analogies means nothing to us evil Calvinists. Give us the scriptures anyday.

Same with salvation. Those who believe are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ through the agency and power of the Holy Spirit. But who the believers are is not a matter of predestination. Foreknowledge, yes. Predestination, no.

Scripture says otherwise. I will post a link at the end of this post.

God leaves NO man to himself when it comes to repenting and believing, but presents every man alive with enough truth to either follow or reject (Romans 1).

Apparently you have not studied up on the story of Judas. He was the son of perdition- predestined to die the betrayer of Christ.

It is up to each man to follow that truth or suppress it. No one is forced or created to do either.

I'd like to know if you could have accepted this truth in your natural state. Please read Romans 3 before you answer.

Those who follow what truth God has presented them with will be led by Him to Christ Jesus, who will turn none away. Calvinists go for the second half of that and completely ignore the first part, which is a major theme of Paul's writings. Half a gospel is not the gospel at all, really, but a perversion of it.

I won't even answer this paragraph. You apparently haven't even read Pauls writings. He had more to say about predestination than just about anything else.

To answer your question, not everyone who hears believes because they have a choice in the matter. We can bless God with our submission or curse Him with our independent rebellion. The choice is ENTIRELY ours.

Congratulations on being savy enough to figure out salvation. I suppose you'll be very grateful to you someday in heaven.

The work is completely done by Him, but the choice to accept or reject is ours.

This is double talk.

A person separated from God may not have any spiritual understanding, but he does have spiritual thirst. And that is all that is necessary.

Romans says none seek God, but you say some do. which is it?

And yes, I do understand Calvinism.

To you you do.

For several years I was the head deaf interpreter for Sproul here on the west coast. It was his material that got me studying the Bible intensely, looking for the truth of this matter.

Sproul's Calvinism is not entirely the orthodox position of Calvinism. A better 'representative' would be C.H. Spurgeon who uttered some of the greatest defenses of Calvinism the world has known since Romans 9.

As for that list of verses I promised beforehand I recommend spending 6 months or so meditating on these. It's a far better use of your time than defending man's free will.

More than 600 reasons why I'm a Calvinist

God bless.

Daniel Allen
webmaster
www.spurgeon.us

 

[Helen]

God is not nonsensical. HE is the one who has said "Come, let us reason together..." The purpose for that? So that the sinner may see the horror of his sin and be cleansed.

But since you obviously started this thread to create a stage for your Calvinistic ideas, I'll leave the stage to you.

 

[4His_glory]

He said to the nation of Israel, His choosen nation, Come let us reason together...

A stage for Calvinistic ideas or biblical ones? Dan posted the link for 600 verse that prove the doctrines of grace.

Oh and one more thing, historically they are called the doctrines of grace,and term which I preffer since Calvinism is so misunderstood.
God Bless.

 

[Pastor Larry]

And a God who chooses ahead of time the few He will save is not how the Bible presents God.

Except for those pesky passages that say exactly that. This statement by this teacher is irresponsible. But from PCC it is hard to expect more. God doesn't choose anyone to go to hell. They are going there anyway.

 

[ascund]

Greetings

To posit that God arbitrarily and capriciously picks and choses is (small) heresy in the following ways:

1) It makes God the author of sin since everything is pre-determined by the counself of His will.

2) It makes God an aloof tyrant. We don't need a Satan with a god like this. Satan is merely a spectator watching the players on the world stage follow their well scripted lines.

3) God's transcendant sovereignty abolishes His immanent covenantal relationships. The two must be held in an equal "both/and" view.

As much as I disagree with Calvinism, it must be noted that the Calvinistic error was a noble attempt to glorify God. It is much nobler than the Arminian human-centered self-righteous system of death. Calvinism is within Christendom; Arminianism is NOT.

Lloyd

 

[2BHizown]

Originally posted by ascund:
Greetings

To posit that God arbitrarily and capriciously picks and choses is (small) heresy in the following ways:

1) It makes God the author of sin since everything is pre-determined by the counself of His will.
2) It makes God an aloof tyrant. We don't need a Satan with a god like this. Satan is merely a spectator watching the players on the world stage follow their well scripted lines.
3) God's transcendant sovereignty abolishes His immanent covenantal relationships. The two must be held in an equal "both/and" view.
As much as I disagree with Calvinism, it must be noted that the Calvinistic error was a noble attempt to glorify God. It is much nobler than the Arminian human-centered self-righteous system of death. Calvinism is within Christendom; Arminianism is NOT.

Lloyd

Please, just for a moment, consider this scenario.
All people were doomed to God's wrath and hell as a result of sin.
In His great mercy, God elected to save some for His very own.
Nothing was changed for the remainder who chose to remain in their sin and by their own choice follow the course to hell.

What is it that YOU think God did that was wrong? The unsaved are lost because they refuse to believe. The saved are saved because they believe. If God is sovereign, how do you find fault with His will in this?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Point 1 is false.
Point 2 is false
Point 3 is false.

Not to mention you started with a false premise--that God arbitrarily and capriciously picks and chooses. You may certainly discuss that issue, but not as Calvinism. Calvinism does not teach anything arbitrary or capricious about God's election, no matter what some loud mouths might continually repeat.

So, pretty much a strike out for you.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by Helen:
But since you obviously started this thread to create a stage for your Calvinistic ideas, I'll leave the stage to you.

Whether you think it's a stage or not I really encourage you to make a study of those verses. I'm not trying to incite you- the verses really were a blessing to me.

God bless!

Dan

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Helen:
Your brother's teacher is correct. Calvinism/Reformed doctrine makes mash of God's character, His sovereignty, and His written Word -- among other things.

I'm inclined to agre with Helen somewhat, though I don't think it's Calvinism/Reformed that does so, but hypercalvinism that is the culprit. As Pastor Larry correctly pointed out, Calvinism does not teach anything arbitrary or capricious about God's election. Hypercalvinism often does, but Calvinism does not.

 

[prophecynut]

whetstone quote:

"2 Peter 3:9...the most misquoted verse by anti-Calvinists."

I agree, here it is (NIV):

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you , not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

We need to back track and find the antecedent of you .

3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends : With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

3:1
Dear friends , this is now my second letter to you , I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking.

1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours.

You refers back to dear friends refers back to those who have faith in Jesus Christ as Savior .

God does not want any one of the elect to perish, but everyone of the elect to come to repentance.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND HELEN?

 

[El_Guero]

Originally posted by whetstone:
Hey guys. Been away for awhile. how ya been?

My brother is at Pensacola Christian College and he has a teacher named Chris Raper who said something the other day along the lines of:

"The idea that God would choose some people for heaven and some for hell is the most evil doctrine the devil ever came up with."

Your thoughts?

By your title and your post, it sounds like you are endorsing this Professor and his claim that Calvin's doctrine of predestination is the doctrine of Satan ...

That was my first thought ...

 

[whetstone]

My best attempt was to open the thread in a neutral manner so either side would not feel I had sleighted them. I believe I have succeeded.