Doctrine of devils

[HanSola2000]

John Piper has a great essay on the two wills of God. You can find it at his sight DesiringGod.org

Yes he does, and let me summarize this Clavinistic teaching about the "two-wills of God, in one word---schizophrenia.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by Robert J Hutton:
If 1st Tim 2 v 4 says that "God desires all men to be saved" then unconditional election cannot be true; however, conditional election would fit in with this verse. God wants all to be saved but knows who will take Him up on the offer of mercy, they are then elected.

Kind regards and Christian love to all,

Bob

Can you imagine going to vote for your presidential candidate after he'd been voted in? That's what conditional election claims: That God votes us in...once we're in. It's ludicrous.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by HanSola2000:
John Piper has a great essay on the two wills of God. You can find it at his sight DesiringGod.org

Yes he does, and let me summarize this Clavinistic teaching about the "two-wills of God, in one word---schizophrenia.

It's only schizophrenia if you have one personality- but God has three. You could equally argue that God is schizophrenic because Christ willed not to go to the cross, but the father willed it. Christ submitted to the father's will and went. This is not to say Christ was entirely UNwilling- but he certainly had his reservations. God CAN desire something, yet will another. He desires you to be perfect as He is perfect- yet He wills to allow sin in the world. Your struggle to understand God doesn't nullify any of His attributes.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Dr. Chris Raper is a true servant of the Lord.

Teaching that God autocratically destines some to Heaven and Hell presents the idea that the Devil and God are in collusion with each other toward some sinners. In the case of the alleged God of Calvinism He only wants most people to go to Hell, while the Devil wants all sinners to enter the regions of the damned. This, of course, would suggest that both the Lord and Satan agree and insure that most go to Hell forever. God and the Devil are not working toward the same ends. God and Satan are at opposite poles. God is Light; Satan is darkness, but comes clothed as being in light.

It is true that Jesus said, "Many will go to Hell and few will ever find everlasting life with Jesus." [Matthew 7:13-14].

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[joey m. candelaria]

Even you are graduated in the Bible school or even in Bible Seminary, if you are not elected of God before the foundation of the world, you cannot grasp or even understand the Sovereign Grace of God...

Hidden Treasure of the Holy Scripture will only reveal to the born again people and those born again people are the elected people of God before the foundation of the world...

 

[Ray Berrian]

joey m. candelaria,

My son married a Philippino girl and they have one son.

I can tell you 'have never been around the block' as far as theological ideas. Vast millions of Christians believe and know that God 'has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world' but we believe that He foresaw every sinner who would believe and, on this basis formed the elect. The Lord is not a Divine puppeteer in dancing some to Heaven and Hell.

Even the Devil believes and trembles in the presence of the Lord, the Bible says, so I would be careful about blaming Jesus for sending souls to a flaming, fiery Hell. Go study your Bible!

In Mark 10:17-22 The Rich Young Ruler kneeled before Jesus asking how he could receive eternal life, but went away sorrowful because he was very wealthy. His own volition/will determined his eternal destiny. Your N.T. also says that 'beholding him He (Jesus} loved the young man.' vs. 21 a.

God did not say I will elect Joey and damn the Rich Young Ruler, or as you Calvinists blatenly believe, 'Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated' as to their preselected destiny ministered by the Lord.

Even the Lord would not override human volition; the man made the decision to reject God; Jesus did not reject the Rich Young Ruler.

Jesus did not say, "Jacob have I loved and the Rich Young Ruler I have hated, as Calvinists pretend to believe.

Read it for yourself. What did Jesus say?

Here is the quote: 'Then Jesus beholding him loved him . . . ' This shows the genuine love that the Lord has for all lost souls/sinners.

Jesus died for and 'tasted death not merely for the Calvinistic elect, but He suffered on the Cross 'for every person.' [Hebrews 2:9; I Timothy 2:4 & 6; I John 2:2].

Am I making it up or did God speaking the the Apostle Peter say that Jesus is 'not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance?' [II Peter 3:9].

If you are going to be a great Bible teacher in the future you cannot read His Word through 'Calvinistic theological glasses or Arminian ones.' Go before the Lord with an open mind and heart and His Spirit [I John 2:27] will enlighten you to all things.

Every Christian has had well meaning pastors and teacher types, but somewhere in life some people begin to question things and adjust themselves to the truth of the New Testament.

Your view of Sovereignty is fashioned after the likes of Fidel Castro, and not the God of the Bible. Is John 3:16 true or is it error?

"Ray"

 

[Ray Berrian]

joey,

Your God portrays the Lord as being in collusion with the evil one. They are both working for the same sinister plan in damning the non-elect.

God is Light; the Devil is the Prince of darkness. I think most Christians would believe they are 'sworn enemeies.' Do you think the Bible is not telling us everything and that these two Beings are secretly working together? No one should agree to this false idea.

Go and figure!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Ray,

You love to quote John 3, but then you totally disregard the words of Christ when you assert that God is in collusion with Satan to damn the non-elect. John 3 teaches us that they are condemned (or damned) already. God doesn't have to work to do that. Sin is the thing that damns them, not God.

Your assertion of evil to God is completely out of line. Surely you can do better than rehash that old and tired argument. Surely that is not the best you can do.

 

[fatbacker]

God does not create anyone for the purpose of going to hell. If that were the case then the scriptures would be totally false. God predestines your life based on the fact that He knows what choices you will make in your life and He will guide you in the way you choose. If you choose Him then He will guide your path towards Christ if you choose to reject Him then He will use you as an insturment of His wrath i.e. Pharoh in Egypt in Moses's day. God creates you with the will to choose your own path, however, there are only two paths you can take. One is accept God's sovereignty and have faith or rebel and burn forever in a pit of dispair for rejecting Him.

God in no way created anyone to go to hell.

 

[Ray Berrian]

fatbacker,

Thanks your words were spoken in line with Biblical teaching no matter what Pastor Larry tells his vulnerable people. How sad.

Pastor is quick to tell us that the Lord send people to Heaven, but backs off from saying that Jesus personally sends sinners to Hell. Maybe there is hope for Larry yet.

No, Larry, sin places us in a condition of soul that we were born with {Adamic nature) which if sinners refuse Jesus--He personally at death sends them to Hell, and then at the Great White Throne Judgment sinners will be escorted to the Lake of Fire. [Revelation 20:11].

My guess, though the Bible does not say, is that angels will do His bidding of placing people into Hell. I do not think sinners will willingly walk to the fiery, eternal pit.

I said that Biblical belief keeps Christians from saying that God is in collusion with the evil one in sending sinners to Hell as to the non-elect.

A sinner's sins place the lost person in the condition of soul so that the Lord's justice and holiness require of Him to put people in Hell.

Some even believe and say that Hell was originally meant for '. . . the Deil and his angels/demons.'[Matthew 25:41] Nevertheless, sinners will be sent to Hell under the authority and directive of Jesus Christ [John 5:22]. No, pastor, Jesus and His angelic beings will send people to Hell, not their sins. Sins are non-corporeal and have no power or authority to make decisions. Jesus will judge sinner's 'works' as duly noted in Revelation 20:12-13. The Lord God takes people to Heaven and also sends rebellious sinners to Hell.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Ray,

You love to quote John 3, but then you totally disregard the words of Christ when you assert that God is in collusion with Satan to damn the non-elect. John 3 teaches us that they are condemned (or damned) already. God doesn't have to work to do that. Sin is the thing that damns them, not God.

Your assertion of evil to God is completely out of line. Surely you can do better than rehash that old and tired argument. Surely that is not the best you can do.

If sin condemns anyone, then Jesus died in vain and John 3:16-18 is a lie.

No one is condemned for sinning. Our sins are ALL atoned for, ALL paid for. There is NO debt left outstanding.

We are condemned, according to the Bible, for refusing Christ.

 

[TCassidy]

Wow! How anybody can claim to be a Christian with little or no understanding of the gospel or the bible is beyond me. The bible says, very clearly, the wages of sin is death. And you, being dead in your sins. How anyone can deny that is beyond me.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Pastor ... backs off from saying that Jesus personally sends sinners to Hell.

Where did I back off from this? You didn't read closely.

Maybe there is hope for Larry yet.

Yes, because of God's great grace.

No, Larry, sin places us in a condition of soul that we were born with {Adamic nature) which if sinners refuse Jesus--He personally at death sends them to Hell, and then at the Great White Throne Judgment sinners will be escorted to the Lake of Fire. [Revelation 20:11].

Yes indeed.

My guess,

Here is the sum total of your theology. You are guessing, rather than accepting what God says.

I said that Biblical belief keeps Christians from saying that God is in collusion with the evil one in sending sinners to Hell as to the non-elect.

You sound like a Calvinist.

No, pastor, Jesus and His angelic beings will send people to Hell, not their sins.

Are you really this out of touch with the use of terms and language? Or are you just putting on for people?

You need to spend more time listening and less time talking.

 

[Pastor Larry]

If sin condemns anyone, then Jesus died in vain and John 3:16-18 is a lie.

No one is condemned for sinning. Our sins are ALL atoned for, ALL paid for. There is NO debt left outstanding.

We are condemned, according to the Bible, for refusing Christ.

Your theology sounds great. It lacks only the merit of being biblical. We have demonstrated teh passages such as Rev 20 and 21, 2 Thess 1, and others where God himself says you are wrong. I hope you will pardon us if we go with him rather than you. To deny that people go to hell for their sins is to deny the plain teaching of inspired Scripture and to deny the justice of God. It is inherently contradictory and it does not take much thought to figure that out. Why do you refuse to deal with Scripture?

If Jesus paid for sin such that men are not judged for it, then why do people go to hell? You say for unbelief. But if unbelief isn't a sin, then why do people go to hell for it? If unbelief is a sin, then why didn't Jesus pay for that sin too?

You have put yourself in the position of limiting the atonement of Scripture. You have said it is not for all sins, because it doesn't cover the sin of unbelief.

Or you have put yourself in the position of making God out to cruel and unjust since he sends people to an eternal hell for something that is not even sinful.

Let's start with this question Helen, and please don't run from it: Is unbelief a sin?

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
Wow! How anybody can claim to be a Christian with little or no understanding of the gospel or the bible is beyond me. The bible says, very clearly, the wages of sin is death. And you, being dead in your sins. How anyone can deny that is beyond me.

Christ paid those wages, remember?
And being separated from God because of our sins here on earth is NOT the same as going to hell because of them.

We are condemned for not believing in/on Christ, not for our sins. Our sins have been atoned for by Christ. He took those wages. All of them.

How anyone can deny that clear biblical principle/truth is beyond me.

 

[Helen]

Larry, unbelief is a choice, not a sin. There is no law saying 'thou shalt believe.'

 

[Pastor Larry]

Two questions:

First, if unbelief isn’t a sin, why do people go to hell for it? What makes the “non-sin” of unbelief worthy of eternal hell?

Secondly, you say there is no law saying "thou shalt believe." However, God very clearly commands us to repent and believe. What are we to make of those?

Mark 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Acts 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

Sin is, at the very least, disobedience to God’s commands. Here, God commands us to believe. Therefore, failure to believe is disobedience and therefore sin. Would you have us believe that we can disobey God and not be sinners? What commands does that extend to? How many of his commands can we disobey without being sinners?

 

[Helen]

Larry, if a person wants to be saved, he must repent and believe. Those are the directions which lead to salvation.

The law defines sin. Paul tells us that without the law not only do we not know what sin is, but sin is dead -- powerless to hurt us.

The requirement that one must believe to be saved is NOT part of the law which defines sin.

"Should repent" is what is said.

The reason people go to hell for not believing is not because not believing is a sin, but because the ONLY way to heaven in through Christ. If one refuses that way, one misses that destination.

Picking the wrong way is not a sin, just a deadly choice.

 

[Pastor Larry]

So God's commands aren't really commands to obey? I don't quite get that Helen. When God gives a command, it is the law and failure to obey it is sin.

But you didn't answer the first question: What is so bad about the non-sin of unbelief that it requires eternal hell? Hell is punishment, not simply the destination for those who miss the exit.

And why is it deadly? The only reason for death, even eternal death which is what hell is, is because of sin. If unbelief isn't sin, then why is it deadly?

 

[TCassidy]

What a bunch of logical nonsense. If sin does not send people to hell, then God is a liar. If all sins are paid for, then nobody is going to hell. If the sin of rejecting Christ is the only sin that sends people to hell, and that sin was not paid for on the cross, then everybody is going to hell for "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."

Rejecting Christ is a sin. If that sin was paid for on the cross, everybody is going to heaven. If that sin was not paid for on the cross, then nobody is going to heaven. If you can stop sinning that sin and go to heaven, then a child molester can stop sinning and just go to heaven too, without being saved.

The wages of sin is still death. You can deny that all you like, but you deny Christ when you do so.