Doctrine of Grace/Calvinisim In Hymns and Songs

[Brother Bob]

twisted for sure but not the song

npetreley
I recommend that free-willers remain silent during songs like Amazing Grace, too. If you don't believe it, don't sing it, or you're being hypocritical. WoW!

It would CERTAINLY be hyprocritical for free-willers to sing this one by Isaac Watts: WoW!

Yes, I'm perfectly aware of the fact that people are free to change the lyrics of songs in the public domain, and many do in order to change what offends them. People do that even to the Bible. Again!

So if you were a feminist, you wouldn't be a hypocrite if you studied a Bible where the words were changed to remove fact that God is portrayed as male and Father. Likewise, you wouldn't be a hypocrite to sing this rewritten version of the song. Wow again!

But you would be a hypocrite to sing the original. Double WoW!!
The song does not blatanly espouse election, but yes, the song takes the tone of election. More so if you know about the author. "I once was lost but now I'm found" is not something that turns on our decision. Free willers can come up with a twisted explanation of how the two may coincide, but this was clearly not the author's intent. hmmmm!

Nevertheless, as I said above, since you can twist Amazing Grace into a song that embraces both free will and election, I offered another example by Isaac Watts that affords no such reinterpretation. People actually had to rewrite Isaac Watts words to get the election out of them.

It didn't flop, I just flip-flopped it back at you. Oh Well!!!

Must be the anger management class you took npet; The nerve of you thinking you can sit in judgement of free-willers even

singing a song, and call it "being Christian". Sounds like a Scripture that comes to mind, they will kill you and say they do God a

service. I honestly think you need to go back for some more counseling, for it is obvious that you can’t get along with no one

but Calvinist. If being a Calvinist is to condemn others as you do, then it is not being a Christian. There is more but I will let it

go at that, for the moment. There is such a thing as being a fanatic about something, and I think you have reached that level in

Calvinism. Are you trying to impress the others? Is that it npet? Well in doing so you have left your first "Love". You do flip

flop from post to post saying these kind of things to others and then say they got a problem getting angry about it. You got a

problem with having compassion, kindness and replace it with cruelty, condemnation always in judgement of others. I wonder

why you feel so qualified to be the judge of others when you have had to go to anger management classes yourself. We only

get angry when someone like you make remarks against us.

 

[Rippon]

BB , please show some grace .

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Brother Bob,


You need to see though opinions. What npetreley has said is his opinion of your faith and why he thinks it is wrong to sing those songs if you believe in free-will. This was not attacking a person…it was attacking a position.

This was a recommendation..

I recommend that free-willers remain silent during songs like Amazing Grace, too. If you don't believe it, don't sing it, or you're being hypocritical.

If you do not agree...sing the song.


This is a opinion…

It would CERTAINLY be hyprocritical for free-willers to sing this one by Isaac Watts.

IMHO...The best reply if you do not agree is.."why would you say this?" And let him prove his meaning. Place the weight on him to prove his opinion. The more you ask you will close the gap of the fight. Sometimes it is a misunderstanding. I'm sure this time it is not a misunderstanding. Still.. make him prove it with the Bible as to why.


This is a statement of agreeing with the other poster.….

Yes, I'm perfectly aware of the fact that people are free to change the lyrics of songs in the public domain, and many do in order to change what offends them. People do that even to the Bible.

This is his argument to his opinion….

So if you were a feminist, you wouldn't be a hypocrite if you studied a Bible where the words were changed to remove fact that God is portrayed as male and Father. Likewise, you wouldn't be a hypocrite to sing this rewritten version of the song.

Go after this one...If you understand clearly...and post why it is wrong. If you disagree, give good reason. If you do not clearly understand..ask him to be clear.

Opinion…

Free willers can come up with a twisted explanation of how the two may coincide, but this was clearly not the author's intent.

Ask why he would say this…if you do not agree.

You get tried of me asking..but I need to make sure I understand before I layout my own view. I think if you were to ask others to be clear, before you attack, things may go a bit better.

Just some food for thought.

Have a great day..

In Christ..James

 

[npetreley]

Jarthur,

Thanks for responding. Bob knows I'm not going to respond to any more of his posts, so I appreciate your reply. The only thing I might have added was the fact that I began this train of thought by confessing that I would be a hypocrite if I sang "In all I do, I honor you", because I know this is not true. Likewise, while I can't think of any right off the top of my head, there have been other songs that espouse free-will through which I have remained silent, because I don't believe what the song is communicating.

Although I probably chose a less-than-ideal example in Amazing Grace, I was simply suggesting that free-willers would likewise be hypocritical if they sang songs that communicated election, because they don't believe it. My point is that it goes both ways, and if people don't want to be hypocrites, they shouldn't sing songs that they don't believe. What people actually decide to do is up to them. Edit: I just know that last sentence opens up sassy remarks about free will (decide to do), but remember that we people who believe in election also believe that people decide to do things because they decide according to their nature.

​

 

[Blammo]

Jarthur,​

Thanks for responding. Bob knows I'm not going to respond to any more of his posts, so I appreciate your reply. The only thing I might have added was the fact that I began this train of thought by confessing that I would be a hypocrite if I sang "In all I do, I honor you", because I know this is not true. Likewise, while I can't think of any right off the top of my head, there have been other songs that espouse free-will through which I have remained silent, because I don't believe what the song is communicating.​

Although I probably chose a less-than-ideal example in Amazing Grace, I was simply suggesting that free-willers would likewise be hypocritical if they sang songs that communicated election, because they don't believe it. My point is that it goes both ways, and if people don't want to be hypocrites, they shouldn't sing songs that they don't believe. What people actually decide to do is up to them.​

Are you sure about that? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[npetreley]

Are you sure about that? :smilewinkgrin:

LOL - see my edit. In case you're wondering, I added that before I saw your response, so I guess I'm pretty good at predicting what people will do.

 

[Jarthur001]

Jarthur,

Thanks for responding. Bob knows I'm not going to respond to any more of his posts, so I appreciate your reply. The only thing I might have added was the fact that I began this train of thought by confessing that I would be a hypocrite if I sang "In all I do, I honor you", because I know this is not true. Likewise, while I can't think of any right off the top of my head, there have been other songs that espouse free-will through which I have remained silent, because I don't believe what the song is communicating.

Although I probably chose a less-than-ideal example in Amazing Grace, I was simply suggesting that free-willers would likewise be hypocritical if they sang songs that communicated election, because they don't believe it. My point is that it goes both ways, and if people don't want to be hypocrites, they shouldn't sing songs that they don't believe. What people actually decide to do is up to them.

​

I'll give you one song i will not sing...

Pass me not, O gentle Savior


Pass me not, O gentle Savior,
Hear my humble cry;
While on others Thou art calling,
Do not pass me by.

Refrain

Savior, Savior,
Hear my humble cry;
While on others Thou art calling,
Do not pass me by.



Anyone that cries out to God will be saved. This song gives the feeling that God will not save some, even thought they want to be saved. The whole idea is...they do not cry out to God. Election does not prevent the salvation of anybody who wants to be saved. It may not have been meant that way when it was wrote, but it sure reads that way.


BTW...I'm not saying I disagree with your statements. I too wonder how people can sing some songs and really mean them. And given the meaning of Grace..well...this song (Amazing Grace) one would have to wonder how they can sing it. I was trying to show where this was not a attack on any one.
But I am not going to tape their mouth shut, and I'm sure you are not.

 

[Blammo]

LOL - see my edit. In case you're wondering, I added that before I saw your response, so I guess I'm pretty good at predicting what people will do.

I see that. And you believe that my response was determined by God before creation, and that you editing it before I responded was determined by God before creation, and that me posting this was determined by God before creation, and that last thing, and that, and that "and that", and that "and that "and that"", and that "and that "and that ""and that "and that""", and that "and that "and that "and that ""and that "and that""""........

:laugh: :thumbs:

I agree, if you take out "determined by God" and replace it with "foreknown by God".

 

[Blammo]

I'll give you one song i will not sing...

Pass me not, O gentle Savior


Pass me not, O gentle Savior,
Hear my humble cry;
While on others Thou art calling,
Do not pass me by.

Refrain

Savior, Savior,
Hear my humble cry;
While on others Thou art calling,
Do not pass me by.



Anyone that cries out to God will be saved. This song gives the feeling that God will not save some, even thought they want to be saved. The whole idea is...they do not cry out to God. Election does not prevent the salvation of anybody who wants to be saved. It may not have been meant that way when it was wrote, but it sure reads that way.


BTW...I'm not saying I disagree with your statements. I too wonder how people can sing some songs and really mean them. And given the meaning of Grace..well...this song (Amazing Grace) one would have to wonder how they can sing it. I was trying to show where this was not a attack on any one.

James

What part/parts of Amazing Grace do you think I don't agree with?

BTW, I love that hymn "Pass Me Not, O Gentle Saviour", obviously if someone humbly cries out to God they will not be passed by. I don't think the hymn suggests that they will be passed by. I think that the hymn suggests that man in his humble, helpless condition doesn't cry out to God, "I thank you God that you have chosen to save me while you pass by these other wicked men"

 

[Brother Bob]

BB , please show some grace

You guys need to practice what you preach. You been condemning the free-willers all through this thread calling us hypocrits and you want me to show Grace? Are you kidding or what?

IMHO...The best reply if you do not agree is.."why would you say this?" And let him prove his meaning. Place the weight on him to prove his opinion. The more you ask you will close the gap of the fight. Sometimes it is a misunderstanding. I'm sure this time it is not a misunderstanding. Still.. make him prove it with the Bible as to why.

Exactly what I am asking?

 

[Brother Bob]

You need to see though opinions. What npetreley has said is his opinion of your faith and why he thinks it is wrong to sing those songs if you believe in free-will. This was not attacking a person…it was attacking a position.

Baloney!!
You all have attacked free willers all the way through and when we say something about Calvinism you go nuts. You need to show some Grace. I guarnatee you if there had not been the hypocrit remarks about us I would not of posted. When will you all learn if you attack us calling us hypocrits we will respond. Clean up your act and the rest will come clean.

 

[npetreley]

Margaret Becker

I know it will probably be a cold day in "somewhere hot" before people start singing Margaret Becker tunes in Church, but here an example of a song I'd prefer to sing instead of "In all I do, I honor you". Margaret Becker tends to express my desire to be obedient, to get my selfishness out of the way. And her lyrics are usually careful to give Glory to Jesus for making the changes that make us more like Him. Overall, I prefer Twila Paris lyrics because they're often so bold. And it doesn't surprise me that Twila Paris has made it into many Baptist Hymnals. But I so have a soft spot for Margaret Becker, her voice, and her lyrics.

Look Me In The Eye Lyrics

I found a letter I wrote to you
In the bottom of the drawer
Simple words, simple point of view
That I don't have much anymore
It said "I don't want fortune
I don't want fame
I only want the treasure
That time can't take away"

CHORUS

Look me in the eye
Tell me if you see
Traces of yourself
Growing here in me
Tell me if you find
Your heart in mine
I pray you'll see your light
When you look me in the eye

Many years have come and gone
Since I wrote that page
And somehow with the passing time
I've let that truth slip away
Dear Lord remind me
Each and every day that your
Holiness, your Godliness
Is all that will remain

CHORUS

Now I see you
Much too dimly
But someday we'll be
Eye to eye
When I see you
I want to hear you say
That you were proud of my life
Lord touch my heart
Center my soul
Till all I do
Is for You alone



​

 

[Brother Bob]

If you do not agree...sing the song.

If you don't agree with my post of which all I did was post what had already been posted, but if you don't agree then don't posts such things.

[Free willers can come up with a twisted explanation of how the two may coincide, but this was clearly not the author's intent.
Ask why he would say this…if you do not agree.

What do you think I am doing? Again, the bad posts started with you guys and talk about twisting, you say it and then try and blame me for calling your hand on it. If you are so nice why you all say such things?

 

[Brother Bob]

Thanks for responding. Bob knows I'm not going to respond to any more of his posts, so I appreciate your reply. The only thing I might have added was the fact that I began this train of thought by confessing that I would be a hypocrite if I sang "In all I do, I honor you", because I know this is not true. Likewise, while I can't think of any right off the top of my head, there have been other songs that espouse free-will through which I have remained silent, because I don't believe what the song is communicating.

Any of us can call ourselves what we want but its when you call others hypocrites you step over the bounds.

Although I probably chose a less-than-ideal example in Amazing Grace, I was simply suggesting that free-willers would likewise be hypocritical if they sang songs that communicated election, because they don't believe it. My point is that it goes both ways, and if people don't want to be hypocrites, they shouldn't sing songs that they don't believe. What people actually decide to do is up to them. Edit: I just know that last sentence opens up sassy remarks about free will (decide to do), but remember that we people who believe in election also believe that people decide to do things because they decide according to their nature.

You got that right, so practice what you preach. I will promise all of you, if you don't call free-willers names and throw off on them you will never hear a negative thing from me. That is all it takes and that is all it ever took, but if you think you can call us name and then say "show Grace" that is just a little bit on the ignorant side.

nept; What people actually decide to do is up to them.

Thats what we been preaching all along.

 

[Jarthur001]

James

What part/parts of Amazing Grace do you think I don't agree with?

BTW, I love that hymn "Pass Me Not, O Gentle Saviour", obviously if someone humbly cries out to God they will not be passed by. I don't think the hymn suggests that they will be passed by. I think that the hymn suggests that man in his humble, helpless condition doesn't cry out to God, "I thank you God that you have chosen to save me while you pass by these other wicked men"

Hello Blammo,

Really only one line in the song that I wonder about.

Was blind, but now, I see.

Most free-willers say they do have "sight"..because man is not dead, he is sick that man is aware of God..not blind..and has a choice to chose God. I fell this is what Newton meant....blind/dead with not knowing of God...so God came to him. In Fact I'm sure this is what he meant, if I can find the story that tellls this. He was, after all a strong 5 point Calvinist.

However, being that it is not the Bible, we can place the meaning we want on there..and it would not be a sin.

I said imy statement in light of the way Newton viewed grace. You disagree..No big deal. This is not the Bible and can be changed.

The rest of the song deals with grace of living...and not so much saving grace.

But...even in this area some free-willers want to change the meaning. This is only a few. We had 2 guys on here in the past that stop just short of removing the word grace from the Bible they hated it so much.


In Christ..James

 

[Jarthur001]

FYI...Here is a long bio of Newton.

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/biographies/01newton.html

 

[Blammo]

Hello Blammo,

Really only one line in the song that I wonder about.

Was blind, but now, I see.

Nope, I believe I once was lost but now am found, and I believe that I was blind but now I see. I was lost and blind before I heard the sweet sound of the gospel, then I was saved, now I am found and I see.

Anything else in the lyrics I may have a problem with?

 

[Jarthur001]

Nope, I believe I once was lost but now am found, and I believe that I was blind but now I see. I was lost and blind before I heard the sweet sound of the gospel, then I was saved, now I am found and I see.

Anything else in the lyrics I may have a problem with?

As I said before, you can change the meaning if you want. Its not like its the Bible.

So... unless you want to remove the word Grace from the Bible....no big deal to me.

 

[Jarthur001]

James


BTW, I love that hymn "Pass Me Not, O Gentle Saviour", obviously if someone humbly cries out to God they will not be passed by. I don't think the hymn suggests that they will be passed by. I think that the hymn suggests that man in his humble, helpless condition doesn't cry out to God, "I thank you God that you have chosen to save me while you pass by these other wicked men"

BTW...if you feel this way...i'm not forcing you not to sing it....so sing it. Yet...i do not have to. Its not like its the Bible..as if I'm removing Romans 9...or something...is it?

 

[Blammo]

As I said before, you can change the meaning if you want. Its not like its the Bible.

So... unless you want to remove the word Grace from the Bible....no big deal to me.

I have no desire to remove the word grace from anywhere. I am saved by grace through faith. (saved by grace) And it is amazing.

Here is a good one, (for you and for me):

Grace Greater than Our Sin

Marvelous grace of our loving Lord,
Grace that exceeds our sin and our guilt!
Yonder on Calvary’s mount outpoured,
There where the blood of the Lamb was spilled.

Refrain

Grace, grace, God’s grace,
Grace that will pardon and cleanse within;
Grace, grace, God’s grace,
Grace that is greater than all our sin.

Sin and despair, like the sea waves cold,
Threaten the soul with infinite loss;
Grace that is greater, yes, grace untold,
Points to the refuge, the mighty cross.

Refrain

Dark is the stain that we cannot hide.
What can we do to wash it away?
Look! There is flowing a crimson tide,
Brighter than snow you may be today.

Refrain

Marvelous, infinite, matchless grace,
Freely bestowed on all who believe!
You that are longing to see His face,
Will you this moment His grace receive?

Refrain