You have pitted implication found in scripture against scripture. This is a very odd and puzzling statement.
Great! Show me the word Trinity in scripture otherwise your argument holds no water.
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Doctrine of the Trinity - Stated or Implied?
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
You have pitted implication found in scripture against scripture. This is a very odd and puzzling statement.
Great! Show me the word Trinity in scripture otherwise your argument holds no water.
I disagree Jon. Your chosen scriptures only scratch the surface of the doctrine of the Trinity (IMO).
It took a raft of scripture and about 300 years to come up with the Trinitarian doctrine of the Nicene Creed.
Athanasius (an Alexandrian
) being the champion.HankD
I guess it depends on your doctrine. People do go into areas that are theory.I disagree Jon. Your chosen scriptures only scratch the surface of the doctrine of the Trinity (IMO).
It took a raft of scripture and about 300 years to come up with the Trinitarian doctrine of the Nicene Creed.
Athanasius (an Alexandrian
HankD
What implication do you suppose I have pitted against Scripture?
Who claimed the word "trinity" was in scripture?
It is foolish to say scripture does not state the divinity of Father, Son, and Spirit and God being one simply because it doesn't use the word "trinity".
Your argument is beneath you on this one.
Oh my word! I never thought I would see the day you would use this tactic. I am very disappointed. Sigh, here is what I quoted from you:
"My argument is that we do not make doctrine out of implication, but instead seek Scripture itself as our authority"
The implication (as you say) comes from scripture so it is in fact scripture. There is no need to pit the implication from scripture against other scripture.
You said:
"I believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is stated in Scripture..."
Great then you can show us where scripture uses the word Trinity or else you are prove wrong.
I did not say that. It is beneath you to use such an argument. Your posting habit have really changed of late. Scripture says all of them are deity but that is not an explicit statement of the Trinity.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
I don't think that it really matters, whether it is 1, or 10 texts in the Holy Bible, that teaches the Holy Trinity. What is far more important, is the fact that it is a Bible Doctrine.
The Holy Trinity is a term that shows that, while "God" is "One"(Deuteronomy 6:4), there are Three "Persons" in the Holy Bible, Who are equally called "God". No one doubts or questions, that the Father is God. However, when speaking of either Jesus Christ (the Son), and the Holy Spirit, even some who consider themselves "Evangelical", do not fully admit that they are "God" in the same way the Father is. The early Church heresy known as "subordinationism", is quite widespread in many Churches today. Even Bible translations are guilty of this! Because God as "Father" is seen by some to be the "prominent", Person in the "Godhead", as He is said to have "sent" both the Son and Holy Spirit, this has led to a complete misunderstanding of the Holy Trinity. Way back to the time of Origen (A.D.185-254), we have a clearer understanding of the relation of the Persons in the Godhead. Commenting on John 1:1, Origen argued that, the Father is here called "τὸν θεόν" (THE God, "and the Word [Jesus] was with THE God), whereas John calls Jesus "θεὸς", where the Greek article is not used, and therefore understood by Origen to mean, that Jesus was a "lesser god". He also went to the extreme of saying that the "nature" of the Father and Son were not "the same", even though Jesus Himself says that He and "the Father are one" (John 10:30), where the use of the neuter "ἕν" (one), contextually means that they are "one in essence". Sadly, Origen's heresy on Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit was adopted by some of the "Orthodox" Church at the time, and led to the arch-heretic, Airus in the 4th century, and present day Jehovah's Witnesses.
That Jesus Christ is Almighty God, can be seen in the Old Testament, where in passages like Isaiah 7:14, where He is called "Immanuel", which means, "God-with-us". And in Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is called "’êl Gibbôr" (Mighty God), which is also used for the Father in Isaiah 10:21, where both uses are exactly the same! Paul, informs us in 1 Timothy 3:16, that Jesus Christ is, ""θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί" (God manifested in the flesh), which, like 1 John 5:7 (for the clearest verse on the Holy Trinity, where the Greek grammar shows beyond any doubt, has to be the correct reading), has been corrupted to read, "He was manifested", etc, etc! It is important to note, that, the early Church father, Ignatius, who was Bishop of Antioch, and who was born just after our Lord's death, in A.D.35, and was martyred under Trajan (about 108 A.D.). In his epistle to the Ephesians he wrote, "εν σαρκι γενομενοϛ Θεοϛ" (VII.2), which is translated, "God having come in the flesh". This was in Paul's Epistle to Timothy, in the first century! In Romans 9:5, Jesus is called, "God over all"; in Acts 20:28, we read of "God" purchasing the Church by His "blood", clearly a reference to Jesus Christ! In Titus 2:14, Jesus is called "our Great God and Saviour". In Hebrews 1:6, God the Father commands all the angels to "worship" Jesus. And, in verse 8 says to Jesus, "Your throne, O God...". In verses 10-12, again the Father ascribes direct Creation to Jesus Christ, where He applies Psalm 102:25-27, which is used for Almighty God (YHWH), and in Hebrews used for Jesus Christ! In Revelation 1:17, Jesus says of Himself, that He is "the First and the Last" (compare Isaiah 44:6, etc, where it is used for Yahweh). On the phrase itself, " ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος", Dr Joseph Thayer, who was a Unitarian, and denied the Holy Trinity and Deity of Jesus Christ, said this in his Greek lexicon: "the eternal" (p.253), which can only be used for Yahweh! In Revelation 5:13-14, we read of the whole of creation, ascribing to BOTH the Father AND Jesus Christ, EQUAL "BLESSING, HONOR, GLORY, POWER", and then They are WORSHIPED as God TOGETHER!
Of the Holy Spirit, we see Him as Creator in Job 33:4, and "God" In Acts 5:3-4, where the Greek reads, "τῷ θεῷ" (THE God), and cannot be reduced to anything less! In Hebrews 10:15-18, we read the Holy Spirit using Jeremiah 31:33-34, and applying the words to Himself! Thereby making Himself to be Yahweh! In Ephesians 4:4-6, the Holy Spirit is placed First, and then Jesus Christ, and then the Father, something that would not be possible, if the Spirit were not Himself Almighty God, and equal to both Jesus and the Father!
No honest person who claims to be a Christian, can ever doubt the Great Doctrine of the Holy Trinity. Three Persons, yet One Godhead. Co-equal, Co-eternal, and Co-essential!
AMEN!
The Holy Trinity is a term that shows that, while "God" is "One"(Deuteronomy 6:4), there are Three "Persons" in the Holy Bible, Who are equally called "God". No one doubts or questions, that the Father is God. However, when speaking of either Jesus Christ (the Son), and the Holy Spirit, even some who consider themselves "Evangelical", do not fully admit that they are "God" in the same way the Father is. The early Church heresy known as "subordinationism", is quite widespread in many Churches today. Even Bible translations are guilty of this! Because God as "Father" is seen by some to be the "prominent", Person in the "Godhead", as He is said to have "sent" both the Son and Holy Spirit, this has led to a complete misunderstanding of the Holy Trinity. Way back to the time of Origen (A.D.185-254), we have a clearer understanding of the relation of the Persons in the Godhead. Commenting on John 1:1, Origen argued that, the Father is here called "τὸν θεόν" (THE God, "and the Word [Jesus] was with THE God), whereas John calls Jesus "θεὸς", where the Greek article is not used, and therefore understood by Origen to mean, that Jesus was a "lesser god". He also went to the extreme of saying that the "nature" of the Father and Son were not "the same", even though Jesus Himself says that He and "the Father are one" (John 10:30), where the use of the neuter "ἕν" (one), contextually means that they are "one in essence". Sadly, Origen's heresy on Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit was adopted by some of the "Orthodox" Church at the time, and led to the arch-heretic, Airus in the 4th century, and present day Jehovah's Witnesses.
That Jesus Christ is Almighty God, can be seen in the Old Testament, where in passages like Isaiah 7:14, where He is called "Immanuel", which means, "God-with-us". And in Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is called "’êl Gibbôr" (Mighty God), which is also used for the Father in Isaiah 10:21, where both uses are exactly the same! Paul, informs us in 1 Timothy 3:16, that Jesus Christ is, ""θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί" (God manifested in the flesh), which, like 1 John 5:7 (for the clearest verse on the Holy Trinity, where the Greek grammar shows beyond any doubt, has to be the correct reading), has been corrupted to read, "He was manifested", etc, etc! It is important to note, that, the early Church father, Ignatius, who was Bishop of Antioch, and who was born just after our Lord's death, in A.D.35, and was martyred under Trajan (about 108 A.D.). In his epistle to the Ephesians he wrote, "εν σαρκι γενομενοϛ Θεοϛ" (VII.2), which is translated, "God having come in the flesh". This was in Paul's Epistle to Timothy, in the first century! In Romans 9:5, Jesus is called, "God over all"; in Acts 20:28, we read of "God" purchasing the Church by His "blood", clearly a reference to Jesus Christ! In Titus 2:14, Jesus is called "our Great God and Saviour". In Hebrews 1:6, God the Father commands all the angels to "worship" Jesus. And, in verse 8 says to Jesus, "Your throne, O God...". In verses 10-12, again the Father ascribes direct Creation to Jesus Christ, where He applies Psalm 102:25-27, which is used for Almighty God (YHWH), and in Hebrews used for Jesus Christ! In Revelation 1:17, Jesus says of Himself, that He is "the First and the Last" (compare Isaiah 44:6, etc, where it is used for Yahweh). On the phrase itself, " ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος", Dr Joseph Thayer, who was a Unitarian, and denied the Holy Trinity and Deity of Jesus Christ, said this in his Greek lexicon: "the eternal" (p.253), which can only be used for Yahweh! In Revelation 5:13-14, we read of the whole of creation, ascribing to BOTH the Father AND Jesus Christ, EQUAL "BLESSING, HONOR, GLORY, POWER", and then They are WORSHIPED as God TOGETHER!
Of the Holy Spirit, we see Him as Creator in Job 33:4, and "God" In Acts 5:3-4, where the Greek reads, "τῷ θεῷ" (THE God), and cannot be reduced to anything less! In Hebrews 10:15-18, we read the Holy Spirit using Jeremiah 31:33-34, and applying the words to Himself! Thereby making Himself to be Yahweh! In Ephesians 4:4-6, the Holy Spirit is placed First, and then Jesus Christ, and then the Father, something that would not be possible, if the Spirit were not Himself Almighty God, and equal to both Jesus and the Father!
No honest person who claims to be a Christian, can ever doubt the Great Doctrine of the Holy Trinity. Three Persons, yet One Godhead. Co-equal, Co-eternal, and Co-essential!
AMEN!
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
None, 1 John 5:7 does
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
what are you on about? my last post is MY WORK! I just finished it! Please get your facts right before you post rubbish!
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
just what is funny?
Personally, I was still thinking of Penal Substitution. I just think we have to stay the same gender God made us.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Personally, I was still thinking of Penal Substitution. I just think we have to stay the same gender God made us.
I'm at a loss. What tactic do you suppose I am using????
If by "pitting Scripture against Scripture" you mean using Scripture to interpret Scripture then yes, that is what I advocate. I do not believe one passage contradicts another, so it is impossible to use one against another (which is how I mistook your meaning....sorry).
Insofar as the doctrine of the Trinity, I was not speaking about the word "Trinity". I was speaking of the teaching (the doctrine) that God is a triune God (Father, Son, and Spirit). It doesn't matter what it's called.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
But it DOES matter what it is called! The term Trinity may not be in the Bible, but it is the BEST and ONLY we have to describe our Great God!
If I referred to the Trinity as the Godhead, would the truth taught in Scripture about the Father, Son, and Spirit change?
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
It does not teach the same thing!
Well, the Bible uses words like "God". Does is "God" good enough?
The point being the title "Trinity" does not teach the doctrine. If I tell someone who has no clue as to the doctrine of the Trinity to believe the Trinity...well, that really doesn't make sense.
But if I explain the Trinity and say that this is God...I don't have to use the title "Trinity" to convey the doctrine.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
I think you are confused!
And it does, BTW, teach the same thing. "Godhead" deals with the divine nature, which includes Father, Son, and Spirit.
I know you are.We cannot get hung up on what doctrines are called. We HAVE to look at the doctrines themselves. Too much is taken too lightly.
What you are telling me is that as long as one mentions the word "Trinity" the doctrine is taught. If one teaches the doctrine but does not use the word "Trinity" it is not taught. This is superstition. We have to look at the teaching.
Our churches are in a mess today because we hold poorly defined doctrine. We take it for granted that a title assumes a set of beliefs. This leads to shallow doctrine. We learned this in the thread about PSA (which now includes the theories of people like Luther and Martyr). We see this in Calvinism, which now seems to include the beliefs of those like Geisler. We have to shore up our doctrine, not just make sure our pet titles are followed.