doctrines of grace ?

[Yeshua1]

Esoteric, only the initiates,adepts are fit to discuss it.

If you don't believe it,don't discuss it. Wow

No, just that before you bash it, please learn what we realy mean by the terms!

 

[Yeshua1]

The highlighted.

You are both right and wrong. 'Original Sin' unlike John the Baptist's age when Jesus was born is a theological construct. This rends it open to debate.

For instance, before Augustine I lack any teaching remotely suggesting inherited guilt. So I subscribe to inherited corrupted nature but not sin. As such,my understanding of Total Depravity may differ with yours.

Still, we may agree exactly on Original Sin but still differ on the nature of its consequences. Prominent strands of Calvinism insist the Depraved soul is totally devoid of life, incapable of responding to God except it is regenerated first hence their curious Ordus Salutis. I find this eloquent but devoid of any scripture backing.

So my brother, don't restrict debate only to those who sees things your way. That's where I'm coming from. The OP asked a question on the doctrines of Grace. Refuting or dismissing them altogether is as valid as expounding them

NO calvinist would see the unsaved/falln as devodi of physical life, just spiritual life, bu tall Christians agree on that!

 

[JonC]

I agree that definitions are important.

I have some accounting background and common terms such as asset,income and so forth have vigorous definitions that would confuse a layman. But such academic and precise definition are really not necessarily essential to the layman. He will grasp what an asset is and what it is not readily.

Coming to scriptures and, theology, definitional imprecision abound. Soul,spirit,regeneration,righteousness,holiness,godliness,justification,judgement....

Some times I find it unhelpful,subjective and other times it amplifies my belief.

'Sinful Nature' to me embodies our tendency to rebel against God. Just as an alcoholic has a tendency to abuse or take alcohol in excessive amounts regularly, but can be sober at time, so is the Sinful Nature; not always and in every way sinning but it tends to sin


Romans 8:3 tells me Jesus came 'in the likeness of sinful flesh,and for sin'. HOW did Jesus manage a sinless life? Was his humanity somewhat special than ours? If so then is it fair to set him up as an example of overcoming temptation? If he was in every way human yet without sin, can a human attain the same state of sinlessness? (I have met 'sin-free' Christians)

This is part of my faith I'm still interrogating. It is one where no proposed paradigm answers all questions. Just like any approach to interpreting Revelation, none is,to date and to me, without holes.



Wholly agreed

So God does something leading to acceptance in some and not others,right?


I won't push it but I think you have just described compulsion.

I'm from Kenya. Kenya has various parts which are steeped in traditional religions and witchcraft. Our neighbors Tanzania are famed for even more potent witchcraft. One type of this is love potions. A woman does it targeting a man and the man is supposed to hopelessly fall for her. Some actually reduce men to puppets, they surrender all their businesses and salaries to a woman.

Supposing a woman did this to you and it worked, would it be anything other than compulsion?

This crude analogy is exactly what unsolicited 'transformation' that makes particular drawing effectual seems to me. Whether after the transformation you want nothing but to follow Christ, you have been rigged to do so. More on this later.

The main reason we may disagree on this aspect is not compulsion but rather that God is anything but love to all those he won't irresistibly draw to him.

He loves them so much as to derive pleasure and glory (Jonathan Edwards spin) in their damnation.

Illustration.
I know you consider yourself Elect.
Consider this. It is perfectly plausible for one Mr. X to study and understand your position including about all you know about God.

Now suppose Mr X is reprobate, and he is also under no illusion that he is anything else. Would Mr X share your perception of God's love and mercy? Would John 3:16 make any sense?

What I'm saying is this particular belief system presupposes all its recipients and purveyors are Elect, are safe. That's why Edward had no qualms over eternal damnation giving God glory as much as eternal life, yet he couldn't volunteer to glorify God from hell



I'm guilty of what you are saying and I've also been a victim. Somebody not only misrepresents my statement or belief, but proceeds to tear it apart. I can't defend what I don't believe in.

But there is another annoying and hilarious habit I have noted not necessarily on this thread; repeat claims that your belief/position is misunderstood. This I usually find as a defense mechanism when your argument or position falls apart and is indefensible. Or where inconsistencies in your beliefs is pointed out. Short of abandoning them, you charge your debater with ignorance without proof.

I think it's human nature to resist admitting fault. The fact that we have invested time,money,resources and emotions in beliefs also makes us cling to them too tight even past their sell-by date.


That said, I sincerely apologize to anyone here I may have hastily misrepresented their position or used unkind words. Please do find it in your heart of hearts forgiveness.

The reason I say that it is not compulsion is because I do not believe God overrides our will in order to make us believe.

Think of it this way – I tell Jim that we can make water boil without adding heat. Jim does not believe me. I use a vacuum pump and lower the pressure in a jar of water in front of Jim. As the pressure decreases Jim sees the water boiling without adding heat. Did I violate Jim’s will in order to “make” him believe? No. I simply revealed to Jim a law of physics.

I believe that the gospel is the power of God to salvation. I do not believe that this means they are words to believe in order to be saved, but that literally the gospel is the power of God to salvation. When God reveals the Truth of the gospel to a man, man believes.

 

[Yeshua1]

The reason I say that it is not compulsion is because I do not believe God overrides our will in order to make us believe.

Think of it this way – I tell Jim that we can make water boil without adding heat. Jim does not believe me. I use a vacuum pump and lower the pressure in a jar of water in front of Jim. As the pressure decreases Jim sees the water boiling without adding heat. Did I violate Jim’s will in order to “make” him believe? No. I simply revealed to Jim a law of physics.

I believe that the gospel is the power of God to salvation. I do not believe that this means they are words to believe in order to be saved, but that literally the gospel is the power of God to salvation. When God reveals the Truth of the gospel to a man, man believes.

My understanding is that when God saves one of His own, He enables us to be able to now come to Christ, as the Spirit "disarms" the sin nature enoug to grant us that ability!

 

[JonC]

My understanding is that when God saves one of His own, He enables us to be able to now come to Christ, as the Spirit "disarms" the sin nature enoug to grant us that ability!

I look at it this way - if something is revealed to you as being true, then you cannot but believe it. I do not believe that God illuminates us to the truth and then we decide whether to believe or not. I believe that God reveals to us the Truth of the gospel, which is the power of God to salvation, and we are transformed by that Truth (we believe).

 

[Yeshua1]

I look at it this way - if something is revealed to you as being true, then you cannot but believe it. I do not believe that God illuminates us to the truth and then we decide whether to believe or not. I believe that God reveals to us the Truth of the gospel, which is the power of God to salvation, and we are transformed by that Truth (we believe).

I take it step furter, as He also enables me to have the will needed and the mind/heart needed to receive with joy the good news!

 

[Agent47]

I look at it this way - if something is revealed to you as being true, then you cannot but believe it. I do not believe that God illuminates us to the truth and then we decide whether to believe or not. I believe that God reveals to us the Truth of the gospel, which is the power of God to salvation, and we are transformed by that Truth (we believe).

Which means unbelievers have yet to be revealed the truth. It also means their rejection is valid seeing the truth has not been revealed to them. Is it their fault that they reject it? And is it really rejection?

 

[JonC]

Which means unbelievers have yet to be revealed the truth. It also means their rejection is valid seeing the truth has not been revealed to them. Is it their fault that they reject it? And is it really rejection?

Of God, yes. Paul makes it clear that condemnation is just because men reject what is revealed. This is a legitimate rejection. In fact, when Paul states this as true, he does so in the exact context you provide here.

 

[Agent47]

Of God, yes. Paul makes it clear that condemnation is just because men reject what is revealed. This is a legitimate rejection. In fact, when Paul states this as true, he does so in the exact context you provide here.

I'm trying to follow through your statement below. Not sure if its me or you are contradicting yourself.

Here;

if something is revealed to you as being true, then you cannot but believe it.

If one cannot but believe what is revealed as being true, then the ones who don't believe have yet to receive revelation, else they'd have long believed,right?

And if they have yet to receive revelation, they can't be condemned for rejecting it


So a sinner on judgement day charged with rejecting revelation can in his defense claim he did not receive none. He has an 'excuse'. Am I making sense, or am I misrepresenting your statement?

 

[JonC]

I'm trying to follow through your statement below. Not sure if its me or you are contradicting yourself.

Here;


If one cannot but believe what is revealed as being true, then the ones who don't believe have yet to receive revelation, else they'd have long believed,right?

And if they have yet to receive revelation, they can't be condemned for rejecting it


So a sinner on judgement day charged with rejecting revelation can in his defense claim he did not receive none. He has an 'excuse'. Am I making sense, or am I misrepresenting your statement?

I believe that we have a general revelation - that is, God, his attributes, nature, and even the Godhead revealed through creation. It is a rebellion against this knowledge that Paul says condemns us. We know to do right, but we do wrong (even if we consider it our own standard).

I do not mean that God reveals the Truth of the gospel to every man. But in John 3 Jesus tells us that this gospel has come to people already condemned for the purpose of saving those who believe. There is no hint of obligation on the part of God. Nor is it necessary for the lost to reject the gospel message in order to be condemned....as Jesus said, they are condemned already.

 

[Agent47]

I believe that we have a general revelation - that is, God, his attributes, nature, and even the Godhead revealed through creation. It is a rebellion against this knowledge that Paul says condemns us. We know to do right, but we do wrong (even if we consider it our own standard).

Thank you for clarification.

Permit me to probe further. There is either rejection or acceptance of general revelation. Rejecting it damns.

What about accepting it? Is the Totally Depraved soul capable of accepting it? And if he does,would it save, or is it sufficient to deliver him from condemnation, or must it be complemented by particular revelation (Gospel)?

I ask because very few pre-calvary knew about the Gospel,and post-calvary, many, in fact majority still perish minus particular revelation of the gospel meaning all they possess is the general revelation.

Sorry if I'm digressing, please let me know.

I do not mean that God reveals the Truth of the gospel to every man. But in John 3 Jesus tells us that this gospel has come to people already condemned for the purpose of saving those who believe. There is no hint of obligation on the part of God. Nor is it necessary for the lost to reject the gospel message in order to be condemned....as Jesus said, they are condemned already.

Ok.
Before the Gospel, man is already condemned, general revelation notwithstanding.

if something is revealed to you as being true, then you cannot but believe it.

I take it in the above excerpt of your post you mean(t) that recipients of particular revelation (gospel) as opposed to general revelation, cannot but believe it,right?

 

[Agent47]

The reason I say that it is not compulsion is because I do not believe God overrides our will in order to make us believe.

Recall you mentioned transformation that makes our drawing certain, and before which we were enemies of God opposed to Him. What exactly is transformed, and is it the sinner's will/wish for this transformation?

Think of it this way – I tell Jim that we can make water boil without adding heat. Jim does not believe me. I use a vacuum pump and lower the pressure in a jar of water in front of Jim. As the pressure decreases Jim sees the water boiling without adding heat. Did I violate Jim’s will in order to “make” him believe? No. I simply revealed to Jim a law of physics.

I'm sorry but the analogy is flawed. You spoke of God inducing transformation not revelation(new information).

I believe that the gospel is the power of God to salvation. I do not believe that this means they are words to believe in order to be saved, but that literally the gospel is the power of God to salvation. When God reveals the Truth of the gospel to a man, man believes.

Even on this belief, we still go back to why the power of God unto salvation is not effectual in some.

All of us are objects of wrath,enemies of God then suddenly (or gradually) some want nothing but God while the rest remain enemies. What happened?

They did not hear and believe words...they received power of God. So the rest didn't. Their hitherto rebellious will now turn to God. Their wills are subdued,overridden, all options but one are removed, they can't but follow Christ

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe that we have a general revelation - that is, God, his attributes, nature, and even the Godhead revealed through creation. It is a rebellion against this knowledge that Paul says condemns us. We know to do right, but we do wrong (even if we consider it our own standard).

I do not mean that God reveals the Truth of the gospel to every man. But in John 3 Jesus tells us that this gospel has come to people already condemned for the purpose of saving those who believe. There is no hint of obligation on the part of God. Nor is it necessary for the lost to reject the gospel message in order to be condemned....as Jesus said, they are condemned already.

Nature shows to all of us that there is a God, who is powerful and a Creator, but it still takes the special revlation of God in Christ via the Holy Spirit in order to hae a sinner become now a saint!

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you for clarification.

Permit me to probe further. There is either rejection or acceptance of general revelation. Rejecting it damns.

What about accepting it? Is the Totally Depraved soul capable of accepting it? And if he does,would it save, or is it sufficient to deliver him from condemnation, or must it be complemented by particular revelation (Gospel)?

I ask because very few pre-calvary knew about the Gospel,and post-calvary, many, in fact majority still perish minus particular revelation of the gospel meaning all they possess is the general revelation.

Sorry if I'm digressing, please let me know.



Ok.
Before the Gospel, man is already condemned, general revelation notwithstanding.



I take it in the above excerpt of your post you mean(t) that recipients of particular revelation (gospel) as opposed to general revelation, cannot but believe it,right?

Sinners will not accept Jesus apart from the work of the Holy Spiit to grant them ears to hear/eyes to see Christ!
All who are lost have chosen to reject the offer of God freely...

 

[JonC]

Recall you mentioned transformation that makes our drawing certain,

No, but I'm getting old. Show me by quoting where I said that transformation makes our drawing certain.

What exactly is transformed, and is it the sinner's will/wish for this transformation?

Ultimately, we are. We are being changed, sanctified, moving from glory to glory (that's about all the Scripture I can come up with right now...we are getting ready to leave). And yes, I think that we all long for the realization of the hope we have in Christ (Paul says it is when we are transformed into His image).

. You spoke of God inducing transformation not revelation(new information).

By revelation I do not mean a new special revelation by God. I mean God's revealing of Truth (that type of personal revelation....it is new to us).

All of us are objects of wrath,enemies of God then suddenly (or gradually) some want nothing but God while the rest remain enemies. What happened?

Well, I don't think it was men doing self-help methods, so I'll choose the work of God in our lives. Or as Paul said "not I but Christ".

 

[JonShaff]

I look at it this way - if something is revealed to you as being true, then you cannot but believe it. I do not believe that God illuminates us to the truth and then we decide whether to believe or not. I believe that God reveals to us the Truth of the gospel, which is the power of God to salvation, and we are transformed by that Truth (we believe).

I do not totally agree with this because I believe people can suppress the truth

Both Spiritual and natural truth. I do believe humbling oneself to Truth is exactly why Christ says "believe" as the response to the Gospel. You must surrender your will to the Truth being spoken and agree with it. There is no room for pride when someone believes that we are sinners in desperate need of a Savior, and we can do nothing to save ourselves.

 

[Yeshua1]

I do not totally agree with this because I believe people can suppress the truth

Both Spiritual and natural truth. I do believe humbling oneself to Truth is exactly why Christ says "believe" as the response to the Gospel. You must surrender your will to the Truth being spoken and agree with it. There is no room for pride when someone believes that we are sinners in desperate need of a Savior, and we can do nothing to save ourselves.

That is thework of the Holy Spiri, to show to us we are sinners, needng Jesus, and He enables us to receive Him thru faith.

 

[JonShaff]

That is thework of the Holy Spiri, to show to us we are sinners, needng Jesus, and He enables us to receive Him thru faith.

Right, and Truth can be Suppressed, as opposed to embraced

 

[JonC]

I do not totally agree with this because I believe people can suppress the truth

Both Spiritual and natural truth. I do believe humbling oneself to Truth is exactly why Christ says "believe" as the response to the Gospel. You must surrender your will to the Truth being spoken and agree with it. There is no room for pride when someone believes that we are sinners in desperate need of a Savior, and we can do nothing to save ourselves.

I agree that we must surrender, but that we do is a work of God.

 

[utilyan]

And that is his problem. Over and over again I have explained to him that "Total Depravity" does not mean every person is as bad as he/she could be, but that all three parts of a person, body, soul, and spirit have been affected by the fall. But he just ignores that, says that "Total Depravity" means nobody can do anything good then says the verses given don't support TD. Except they do. They support the REAL definition of TD, not his false definition.

Total Depravity means as bad as could be. That's why they use the word "TOTAL"?

Maybe you just believe in Partial Depravity?


If God "let go" we would all be dead in seconds. I could put some vids of James White telling us this.

We can hear from others;
"Our rebellion against God is total." -Piper
"In his total rebellion everything man does is sin."-Piper
"Man's inability to submit to God and do good is total."- piper

"We declare on scriptural authority that the human will is so desperately set on mischief, so depraved, so inclined to everything that is evil, and so disinclined to everything that is good, that without the powerful, supernatural, irresistible influence of the Holy Spirit, no human will will ever be constrained toward Christ.” -- Spurgeon

"The Bible teaches the total depravity of the human race. Total depravity means radical corruption. We must be careful to note the difference between total depravity and "utter" depravity. To be utterly depraved is to be as wicked as one could possibly be. Hitler was extremely depraved, but he could have been worse than he was. I am sinner. Yet I could sin more often and more severely than I actually do. I am not utterly depraved, but I am totally depraved. For total depravity means that I and everyone else are
depraved or corrupt in the totality of our being. There is no part of us that is left untouched by sin. Our minds, our wills, and our bodies are affected by evil. We speak sinful words, do sinful deeds, have impure thoughts. Our very bodies suffer from the ravages of sin." -Sproul



You might be trying to say what Sproul is saying.

But really post God's current grace.


Find someone totally separated from God and its guaranteed "utterly" evil let alone totally.

And then there is preconceived ideas what evil course vs "intelligent" evil course.

For example the Devil isn't suicidal and apathetic. He still "cares" to have a beef with God.

Even a sadist is well too "entertained" by existence.

A lot of evil if not all is just immaturity.