Does 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teach the sign gifts have ceased?

[percho]

If τελειον ("perfect" - better, "complete") refers to Christ then, because the rules of Greek grammar demand that μερους ("partial" - better "incomplete") must refer to the same antecedent, you are left with "When the complete Christ comes the incomplete Christ will be done away with."

So, all those who think "perfect" (complete, mature) refers to Christ, please tell me what a "partial" (incomplete, immature) Christ is and how, exactly, is He done away with?

To those who think "perfect" refers to Christ, have you ever heard the saying "context is your friend?" Nowhere in the preceding context is Christ mentioned. The context is the revelatory sign gifts in the form of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge (synecdoche - a figure of speech wherein part is used to indicate the whole).

And the next problem with that position is that the Greek word translated "perfect" is neuter. Is Christ neuter or is He masculine?

I do not think it applies to Christ, I think it applies to Paul and or Christians as in Phil 3:11,12.

 

[Yeshua1]

A question.

Do all believers know all things in the Scriptures so that there are absolutely no mysteries and no misunderstandings?

For that is the actual meaning of Paul's statement concerning, "Now we know in part..."

Just when will all believers never know in part, or have any mystery concerning the Scriptures?

Following His return, or in other words, from the beginning of the millennium and on.

The opinion of the cessation can be obliged by the thinking of the eschatology. The a-millennial view must conform the Scriptures to not even suggest a millennial consideration and find some other time in which the gifts of God would cease.

That followed a tradition of teaching that continued in Baptist churches to this day.

God will use as He chooses to further His work.

That some want to limit God, to distill His word into something which would deny the work of the Holy Spirit has been a very poor testimony in Baptist history.

Even the head of the IMB of the SBC understands this and has agreed that both tongues and miracles are ongoing.

I think the key phrase is to grow into maturity, and not be swayed by false doctrines, and the completed scriptures indeed are able and sufficient to do that for us, regardless of tongues or not!

 

[agedman]

Moses was face to face with God with no prophet between them.

I do not disagree. But that also proves the point I was making. "Face to face" means face to face.

As Moses, the Apostles, and others who were "face to face" with nothing between.

I am not diminishing the Scriptures. Rather, the Scriptures tell of Him, they are not Him. When He returns, we are face to face and no need to attempt to discern mysteries through fallen eyes and the bias of sin. We will be face to face, nothing between.

we read the scriptures we are face to face with the Author, no "Authoritative Magisterium" between us.

Here is a problem. Reading what is written by the author is never being "face to face" with the author.

The Lord said, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;..." If the Scriptures were the author, why then would He make such a statement?

Face to face with the author will happen, but it is not now, and therefore this passage of Paul is yet to be fulfilled.

we study to show ourselves approved unto God.

Why would I disagree with that?

But, note that it takes study, it takes effort, it takes time, it takes diligence.

That is not true when one is "face to face."

Rather, "face to face" would be along the lines of Amos' statement, "Do two men walk together unless they have made an appointment?"

To illustrate:
When one makes a doctor appointment, they have no desire to sit in the library reading about cures for illness, but want face to face time with the physician.

One can and should read and apply the principles of the Scriptures, yet when the Lord returns, it is then that the statement of Paul is truly satisfied:
"12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known."

Look at the tenses of the English.

"will" is placed as in the future, yet what has Paul stated has already occurred? Is it not that he is already fully known? Who has fully known Paul? Christ. When will Paul be "face to face" no longer seeing "through a mirror dimly?" When he is present with the Lord. When will the time of the Holy Spirit helps cease? In the presence of the Lord, at His return.

 

[agedman]

I think the key phrase is to grow into maturity, and not be swayed by false doctrines, and the completed scriptures indeed are able and sufficient to do that for us, regardless of tongues or not!

Growing into maturity is wonderful, and a pursuit that every believer must engage in the process. But, the Scriptures, alone, do not attend to that process. Rather, the Lord and Apostles stated that tribulation and trials are also part of the mix. That certain pruning and purging happens in the believer's life so that the believer grows into a more useful vessel and more accomplished in the Way.

The Scripture impact and imprint upon the believer is never to be diminished.

However, the Scriptures are that which brings and points the believer to Christ, as Paul and the Lord stated. They are given for instruction in righteousness, they point to the giver and sustainer of righteousness. Just as the Holy Spirit does not speak of Himself, but point one to the Christ, so do the Scriptures.

The Scriptures present the believer the statements of the author, but that is not "face to face" with the author, rather it is reading that which the author gave.

Being multilingual is a tool and some are gifted in such communication skills and as such may be used by the Holy Spirit to His desires.

For the readers:

Do not consider the modern tongues of the charismatic crowd to be that which Paul is using in 1 Corinthians 13. It is NOT! Rather, Paul is using the word "tongues" in reference to earthly languages and heavenly communication. It was not some "sign" given as the modern charismatic folks present, but a tool available to communicate the gospel in the native language of the people hearing the message.

 

[Yeshua1]

Growing into maturity is wonderful, and a pursuit that every believer must engage in the process. But, the Scriptures, alone, do not attend to that process. Rather, the Lord and Apostles stated that tribulation and trials are also part of the mix. That certain pruning and purging happens in the believer's life so that the believer grows into a more useful vessel and more accomplished in the Way.

The Scripture impact and imprint upon the believer is never to be diminished.

However, the Scriptures are that which brings and points the believer to Christ, as Paul and the Lord stated. They are given for instruction in righteousness, they point to the giver and sustainer of righteousness. Just as the Holy Spirit does not speak of Himself, but point one to the Christ, so do the Scriptures.

The Scriptures present the believer the statements of the author, but that is not "face to face" with the author, rather it is reading that which the author gave.

Being multilingual is a tool and some are gifted in such communication skills and as such may be used by the Holy Spirit to His desires.

For the readers:

Do not consider the modern tongues of the charismatic crowd to be that which Paul is using in 1 Corinthians 13. It is NOT! Rather, Paul is using the word "tongues" in reference to earthly languages and heavenly communication. It was not some "sign" given as the modern charismatic folks present, but a tool available to communicate the gospel in the native language of the people hearing the message.

The two tenets modern Charismatics built up around tongues are that it is the sign of now being infilled by Holy Spirit, and in extreme cases, the sign even of being saved! Also, they claim a Heavenly prayer tongue also, problem is that none eof that is in the sacriptures.

 

[agedman]

The two tenets modern Charismatics built up around tongues are that it is the sign of now being infilled by Holy Spirit, and in extreme cases, the sign even of being saved! Also, they claim a Heavenly prayer tongue also, problem is that none eof that is in the sacriptures.

Which is why in two posts, I placed such a statement as to make certain the readers would understand that the use of "tongues" by Paul in 1 Corinthians 13 were actually spoken languages used to communicate between members of the same grouping.

The "tongues" is a most unfortunate translation, and it would have been far better (imo) had the translators used the word "languages."

 

[Yeshua1]

Which is why in two posts, I placed such a statement as to make certain the readers would understand that the use of "tongues" by Paul in 1 Corinthians 13 were actually spoken languages used to communicate between members of the same grouping.

The "tongues" is a most unfortunate translation, and it would have been far better (imo) had the translators used the word "languages."

Yes, and it would be nice to have the Charasmatics understand that what they call the "Baptism in Holy Ghost" is actually what Baptists call being infilled, and tongues are not the sign of that happening!

 

[TCassidy]

Reading what is written by the author is never being "face to face" with the author.

You and I must read the bible very differently.

 

[agedman]

You and I must read the bible very differently.

I doubt we do.

What we seem to do is to discern what is written very differently.

For example, in this thread, it would seem you place the Scriptures as the catalyst when I present that the Scriptures lead and point to the catalyst.

The folks who questioned the Lord Jesus did the same, which is why He said, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;..."

All I am pointing to is to that which Paul pointed to, which was when we are face to face with the Redeemer there is no mystery, and no need for language interpretations. Face to face one does not see dimly, nor have unanswered questions.

The completion of writing of the Scriptures nor the compiling of the Scriptures into a single bound volume did not remove language barriers around the world. Nor did it remove all mysteries from being resolved concerning even the Scriptures.

As you pointed out, "face to face" means exactly that.

Until we are "face to face" with our Redeemer, we behold the mysteries of the writings and attempt to resolve spiritual matters as those that do not hold all the facts and cannot bring unresolved issues in "face to face" discussions. For even John states the world could not contain the books if all were to be written that the Lord Jesus did, how much less would it be able to hold if the Book given did not have some sealed parts not recorded?