Does 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teach the sign gifts have ceased?

[percho]

The writer of Hebrews places the gifts of the Spirit into the past tense. Which I believe helps determine Paul's use of "perfect" in 1 Corinthians.

“while God confirmed their witness with signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.” (Hebrews 2:4) (NET)

Correct and what provided the Spirit?

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Acts 2:32,33
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Heb 5:7,9
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? Eph 4:8,9

 

[1689Dave]

God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Heb 11:40

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 1 Cor 13:10

When yet may be coming the perfect,

What perfect?

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Could anyone be perfected before that took place?

then that which is in part shall be done away.
but then face to face:
when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Paul says, "for we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when what is perfect [Or "when completion"] comes, the partial will be set aside." 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 (NET)

That is, something [complete] will replace prophecy which is in part.

And Peter says the written word is better than the spoken (prophetic).

“And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” (2 Peter 1:18–20) (KJV 1900)

 

[1689Dave]

Why is it so many believers do not speak in tongues? If tongues were for today, wouldn't you see more of it throughout Christendom? Instead of only in a few recently developed sects?


I believe tongues today are not genuine. And do not happen spontaneously to the unsuspecting as they did in Acts. But charismatics must teach and coax people into learning how to mimic the gift. And this explains why it is denominational instead of body wide.

 

[agedman]

A question.

Do all believers know all things in the Scriptures so that there are absolutely no mysteries and no misunderstandings?

For that is the actual meaning of Paul's statement concerning, "Now we know in part..."

Just when will all believers never know in part, or have any mystery concerning the Scriptures?

Following His return, or in other words, from the beginning of the millennium and on.

The opinion of the cessation can be obliged by the thinking of the eschatology. The a-millennial view must conform the Scriptures to not even suggest a millennial consideration and find some other time in which the gifts of God would cease.

That followed a tradition of teaching that continued in Baptist churches to this day.

God will use as He chooses to further His work.

That some want to limit God, to distill His word into something which would deny the work of the Holy Spirit has been a very poor testimony in Baptist history.

Even the head of the IMB of the SBC understands this and has agreed that both tongues and miracles are ongoing.

 

[TCassidy]

If τελειον ("perfect" - better, "complete") refers to Christ then, because the rules of Greek grammar demand that μερους ("partial" - better "incomplete") must refer to the same antecedent, you are left with "When the complete Christ comes the incomplete Christ will be done away with."

So, all those who think "perfect" (complete, mature) refers to Christ, please tell me what a "partial" (incomplete, immature) Christ is and how, exactly, is He done away with?

To those who think "perfect" refers to Christ, have you ever heard the saying "context is your friend?" Nowhere in the preceding context is Christ mentioned. The context is the revelatory sign gifts in the form of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge (synecdoche - a figure of speech wherein part is used to indicate the whole).

And the next problem with that position is that the Greek word translated "perfect" is neuter. Is Christ neuter or is He masculine?

 

[1689Dave]

A question.

Do all believers know all things in the Scriptures so that there are absolutely no mysteries and no misunderstandings?

For that is the actual meaning of Paul's statement concerning, "Now we know in part..."

Just when will all believers never know in part, or have any mystery concerning the Scriptures?

Following His return, or in other words, from the beginning of the millennium and on.

The opinion of the cessation can be obliged by the thinking of the eschatology. The a-millennial view must conform the Scriptures to not even suggest a millennial consideration and find some other time in which the gifts of God would cease.

That followed a tradition of teaching that continued in Baptist churches to this day.

God will use as He chooses to further His work.

That some want to limit God, to distill His word into something which would deny the work of the Holy Spirit has been a very poor testimony in Baptist history.

Even the head of the IMB of the SBC understands this and has agreed that both tongues and miracles are ongoing.

We still do not see tongues supernaturally happening to the unsuspecting who come to Christ as we do in Acts. It is a learned and coerced experience unlike anything in scripture. Nowhere do we see the apostles or others coaching believers how to do it. If tongues were for today, we wouldn't be discussing it now. It would be a common experience of many throughout Christendom.

 

[TCassidy]

Do all believers know all things in the Scriptures so that there are absolutely no mysteries and no misunderstandings?

No. But that is not God's fault. He told us all we need to know in His word. We just fail to "study to show ourselves approved unto God."

Just when will all believers never know in part, or have any mystery concerning the Scriptures?

When they study to show themselves approved unto God.

And, by the way, Paul's reference to "know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains" is hyperbole being contrasted with "love." The whole point. Love is superior to all the hyperbole.

 

[agedman]

If τελειον ("perfect" - better, "complete") refers to Christ then, because the rules of Greek grammar demand that μερους ("partial" - better "incomplete") must refer to the same antecedent, you are left with "When the complete Christ comes the incomplete Christ will be done away with."

So, all those who think "perfect" (complete, mature) refers to Christ, please tell me what a "partial" (incomplete, immature) Christ is and how, exactly, is He done away with?

To those who think "perfect" refers to Christ, have you ever heard the saying "context is your friend?" Nowhere in the preceding context is Christ mentioned. The context is the revelatory sign gifts in the form of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge (synecdoche - a figure of speech wherein part is used to indicate the whole).

And the next problem with that position is that the Greek word translated "perfect" is neuter. Is Christ neuter or is He masculine?

Agreed, it does not refer to Christ.

Never referred to Christ.

So what is the ONLY solution?

The TIME and conditions of believers following the return of Christ.

 

[1689Dave]

Agreed, it does not refer to Christ.

Never referred to Christ.

So what is the ONLY solution?

The TIME and conditions of believers following the return of Christ.

This makes Paul's comparison between love, faith, and hope that remain, and knowledge, tongues and prophecy that expire, meaningless if all end at the same time.

 

[agedman]

No. But that is not God's fault. He told us all we need to know in His word. We just fail to "study to show ourselves approved unto God."
When they study to show themselves approved unto God.

And, by the way, Paul's reference to "know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains" is hyperbole being contrasted with "love." The whole point. Love is superior to all the hyperbole.

I disagree that Paul's reference is hyperbole.

He refers to himself later in 2 corinthians as having not a single aspect of apostleship less that even the most revered of Apostles.

Paul is contrasting that without the proper motivation, there is no aspect of the ministry that is beneficial.

He then proceeds to express how that proper motivation manifests itself.

Is there a single believer, even among the Apostles in which such manifestation was unfettered? Did not they all fail at time to time in some aspect as seen by Paul rebuking Peter?

When will such manifestation be so fulfilled in completeness with absolutely not a single manifestation diminished?

Do you understand all mysteries in the Scripture?

Do you see completely, without distortion the answer to all things?

Paul put no qualifiers as you do upon the understanding, but stated "then we will know fully..." "WE will see Face to Face..." This can only occur following our Lord's return.

For even (taking the Revelation accurate) the saints of heaven to this day cry out, "How long..." They know only in part, yet are face to face.

 

[agedman]

This makes Paul's comparison between love, faith, and hope that remain, and knowledge, tongues and prophecy that expire, meaningless if all end at the same time.

Never said love, faith, hope expire. Neither did Paul.

 

[1689Dave]

Never said love, faith, hope expire. Neither did Paul.

Paul contrasts tongues, interpretation of tongues, and knowledge with love, faith and hope. If as some say, prophecy, tongues and interpretation remain until the end of the world, Paul's comparison is meaningless.

 

[agedman]

Paul contrasts tongues, interpretation of tongues, and knowledge with love, faith and hope. If as some say, prophecy, tongues and interpretation remain until the end of the world, Paul's comparison is meaningless.

Not true.

Paul did not set in contrast knowledge, faith, hope, love, tongues. Rather, he was demonstrating the superiority of love. That without that love the aspects of faith, hope, tongues, knowledge, are unprofitable, meaningless, of little value. He is not using comparing and contrasting terms, but that which states that if an ingredient is missing the recipe will fail.

Because, after the return of Christ, from the millennium following, Paul could rightly state that faith, hope, and love would abide and such necessaries in which the Holy Spirit may of His choosing provide for the use of some manifestation would cease.

 

[TCassidy]

"WE will see Face to Face..." This can only occur following our Lord's return.

Nope. "Face to face" is a hebraism indicating receiving a communication directly from the source.

Moses received the Decalogue directly from God, "face to face" rather than indirectly through a prophet.

All Old Testament prophecy, history, and promises, came indirectly to the people through the prophets. But Moses got his directly from the source, "face to face."

Paul is saying that when the completion (the bible) comes we will get our revelation "face to face" or directly from the source instead of through a prophet. No longer will we have to "test the spirits" of those claiming to teach or preach some new thing as the word of God. We can just compare their teaching/preaching to the now complete word of God and know if they are preaching truth or falsehood. We will know others even as God knows us.

 

[agedman]

Perhaps a disclaimer needs to be inserted:

Tongues in the 1 Corinthian 13 passage is NOT some charismatic gibberish, but a known language used on this earth and that which is used to communicate among the heavenly beings.

Readers need to be informed that the "tongues" movement of the modern Charismatic Movement are not biblical, not to be sought, and not to be emulated in any manner.

Such "charismatic tongues" has occurred in even the religious zeal of the ungodly RCC, Buddhist, Hindu, Shinto, ...

Rarely did the Native American use actual lyrics to their songs, but used vowel sounds as they worked themselves up into a frenzy.

Worldly "tongues" has no place in the believer's life, it is not of God!

 

[agedman]

Nope. "Face to face" is a hebraism indicating receiving a communication directly from the source.

Moses received the Decalogue directly from God, "face to face" rather than indirectly through a prophet.

All Old Testament prophecy, history, and promises, came indirectly to the people through the prophets. But Moses got his directly from the source, "face to face."

I agree. Face to face, means face to face. THAT is part of the point!

Paul is saying that when the completion (the bible) comes we will get our revelation "face to face" or directly from the source instead of through a prophet. No longer will we have to "test the spirits" of those claiming to teach or preach some new thing as the word of God. We can just compare their teaching/preaching to the now complete word of God and know if they are preaching truth or falsehood. We will know others even as God knows us.

1) Paul never even eludes that there is yet to be a completed Bible, and much less does he state such will be "face to face" encounter.
2) There is no expiration date given in Scriptures of when Believer's are to cease "testing the spirits."
3) "By their fruits you shall know them" not by comparing their teaching/preaching.
4) You have no authority to claim you "know others" as God knows us.

 

[TCassidy]

You have no authority to claim you "know others" as God knows us.

We will know even as we are known. All we have to do is compare their preaching to the bible.

Just like now. All we have to do is compare what you say to what the bible says and see that the bible is right.

 

[1689Dave]

Not true.

Paul did not set in contrast knowledge, faith, hope, love, tongues. Rather, he was demonstrating the superiority of love. That without that love the aspects of faith, hope, tongues, knowledge, are unprofitable, meaningless, of little value. He is not using comparing and contrasting terms, but that which states that if an ingredient is missing the recipe will fail.

Because, after the return of Christ, from the millennium following, Paul could rightly state that faith, hope, and love would abide and such necessaries in which the Holy Spirit may of His choosing provide for the use of some manifestation would cease.

Paul says: Before completion: "for we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when what is perfect [Or "when completion"] comes, the partial will be set aside." 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 (NET)

After completion: "And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:13 (NET)

Therefore Paul contrasts tongues, interpretation of tongues, and knowledge with love, faith and hope. If as you say, prophecy, tongues and interpretation remain until the end of the world, Paul's comparison is meaningless.

Plus, do you know any charismatics that did not need to learn about tongues before they spoke in tongues? This alone proves it is fraudulent.

 

[agedman]

We will know even as we are known. All we have to do is compare their preaching to the bible.

Just like now. All we have to do is compare what you say to what the bible says and see that the bible is right.

Do ALL believers know all things about themselves as they are known by the Father?

I dare say even you, with all your learning and experience, do not know all the secrets of your own heart, much less want that which is hidden away, exposed.

Yet Paul states, that such knowing and understanding will take place.

Paul put no qualifiers in the statement, but stated that knowing will be complete without darkness, without mystery.

Here then I present another problem.

We hold Paul as a writer of Scriptures. Did Paul know all things? Did any prophet know all things? Daniel didn't, and a record of his desire of answer(s) is recorded in his account.

You are the one that stated the use of "face to face" in the Scriptures. That in each it was God directly face to face.

Yet, the prophets and even Mosses set in writing what we read, and therefore we are not face to face, but as those who can read and look through what is presented as one not face to face, but a recipient. They may have been face to face, but WE are not.

When will we be face to face?

 

[TCassidy]

Do ALL believers know all things about themselves as they are known by the Father?

Asked and answered.

I dare say even you, with all your learning and experience, do not know all the secrets of your own heart, much less want that which is hidden away, exposed.

And you were of the opinion I was different from everyone else?

Yet, the prophets and even Mosses set in writing what we read, and therefore we are not face to face,

Moses was face to face with God with no prophet between them.

When we read the scriptures we are face to face with the Author, no "Authoritative Magisterium" between us.

When will we be face to face?

When we study to show ourselves approved unto God.