Does 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teach the sign gifts have ceased?

[atpollard]

Most of modern Charismatic theology derives not from the scriptures themselves, but from those who are claiming divine revelations from God!

Why do Baptists seem to delight in smearing mud by on Pentecostals and Charismatics by innuendo?

Would you say your statement applies to Wayne Grudem?

 

[Yeshua1]

Why do Baptists seem to delight in smearing mud by on Pentecostals and Charismatics by innuendo?

Would you say your statement applies to Wayne Grudem?

The part of his theology that is not really based on the scriptures themselves, yes!

 

[atpollard]

The part of his theology that is not really based on the scriptures themselves, yes!

Thank you for your honesty.
Thus ends the conversation.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you for your honesty.
Thus ends the conversation.

The truth though is that ALL and ANY Theologian has some faulty areas of theology/doctrine to them, as none were Apostles of Christ, none wrote sacred writ!

 

[atpollard]

Except for the area of cessationism, where no real effort is made to actually examine scripture ... one just immediately leaps to slandering anyone who dares to hold a contrary view.

 

[Darrell C]

Most of modern Charismatic theology derives not from the scriptures themselves, but from those who are claiming divine revelations from God!

That would only be true of the hyper charismatic. There are conservative charismatic groups who share in identical views with other groups on essential doctrines. Those who do think God is still giving revelation are easily identifiable, and are to be rejected. Doesn't mean we can or should badmouth all charismatics. I don't see their babblings as any different than the babblings of those who try to assert their superiority but are equally as ignorant of God's Word. The only difference being is I cannot parse the babblings of charismatics.


God bless.

 

[agedman]

I'd like to suggest that there is such a "heavenly language" in which the believer may certainly "utter." But it is nonsense to that of the earthly.

It is found when the believer in greatest distress can only perhaps mutter "Oh, Father be merciful to me a sinner" because they have reached the very end of their own self and find all is truly vanity and lies.

It is found when the believer in the greatest distress can but weep and groan in repentance and that which only the Holy Spirit manipulates into what is acceptable.

Throughout the world and time, believers have found that very special place of peace and rest in the midst of such pain and sorrows that the Holy God through the Holy Spirit will communicate in terms endearing to the believer who has no other resource.

Therefore, Paul's statement of "tongues of angels" is not something to be sought, but is available to any for access in times of the deepest distress.

It is not for public consumption, no public interpretation, but is that which is singularly purposeful.

An example is found in the prayer of the mother of Samuel. The high priest rebuked her thinking she was drunk. But, when he understood, he blessed her.

The typical charismatic thinking is that the "tongues" should be sought.

At no place is such searching evidenced in the Scriptures.

Be it earthly languages, or heavenly utterances, the seeking of such "gifts" is a waste of time.

Such is given by the Holy Spirit for very specific events, and not some indication of special favor, blessing, authority, or some other charismatic thinking.

Such is given by the Holy Spirit for the pronouncement of the Scriptures, and the communion fellowship when absolutely all else fails.

 

[Darrell C]

Why do Baptists seem to delight in smearing mud by on Pentecostals and Charismatics by innuendo?

Let's face it, Charismatics and Pentecostals have brought reproach upon themselves in their doctrine and practice. We have entire channels devoted to non-stop preaching of health/wealth name it and claim it nonsense. Most see through the charade and see that most of these folks have one intent...money. "Send us your best donation and we will send you a prayer cloth, and you pray your troubles over the cloth and send it back and we'll burn all your troubles."

There are conservative charismatics who are pretty sound in most areas, and even with those who embrace ecstatic speech, there are many who sincerely believe ecstatic speech is Biblical. That's because they are taught this by those who have the rule over them, their leadership. And it is customary for people to trust the leadership in the fellowships where they turned to Christ.

And they can do three things to help themselves: study, study, study.

I agree it's not good to simply badmouth people, but, I don't see Baptists pointing out doctrinal error as smearing mud. It is our job to confront false doctrine.


God bless.

 

[atpollard]

Let's face it, Charismatics and Pentecostals have brought reproach upon themselves in their doctrine and practice. We have entire channels devoted to non-stop preaching of health/wealth name it and claim it nonsense. Most see through the charade and see that most of these folks have one intent...money. "Send us your best donation and we will send you a prayer cloth, and you pray your troubles over the cloth and send it back and we'll burn all your troubles."

Should we begin all conversations about Baptists by holding up those churches that handle poisonous snakes, teach KJVO, and protest soldiers funerals?

All non-cessationists are greeted with assumptions like those to which I responded claiming we all just make up the theology based on extra-biblical revelation. When asked point blank about someone like Wayne Grudem, the response is "Of course him, too."

Here is a bit of trivia from where the rubber meets the road. There are a lot of people who believe that God still does supernatural things and have some exposure to Calvary Chapel or a Pentecostal church that visit the Southern Baptist Church that I attend. Most are eventually driven off by the bad taste left by the anti-Pentecostal mockery coming from the pulpit. Few if any of those being driven off 'speak in tongues' or claim any 'gift of prophecy'. They just like to raise their hands and shout for joy when they sing praises to their God. However, from the pulpit comes the clear message that there is no room for them in the SBC.

You lectured me on the importance of Eschatology to Sotierology. Now it is my turn to point out why at least one SBC is hemorrhaging visitors ... it is more a Galatians 5:15 issue than a defense of good theology.

... But you just keep on defending the Baptist right to hate non-cessationists.

 

[Darrell C]

Should we begin all conversations about Baptists by holding up those churches that handle poisionous snakes, teach KJVO, and protest soldiers funerals?

Doesn't bother me how you speak about Baptists. All you have to do is spend a little time on this forum and based on what those here who call themselves Baptists say...

...there's probably a great increase made in charismatic circles.

All non-cessationists are greeted with assumptions like those to which I responded claiming we all just make up the theology based on extra-biblical revelation.

Did someone say that? All I have seen is a mention that there are charismatics who are in fact teaching God is still giving revelation. That's been going on for years.

Has nothing to do with being a cessationist or not being one.

When asked point blank about someone like Wayne Grudum, the response is "Of course him, too."

Wasn't interested enough to look at it.

Still not.

Here is a bit of trivia from where the rubber meets the road. There are a lot of people who believe that God still does supernatural things and have some exposure to Calvary Chapel or a Pentecostal church that visit the Southern Baptist Church that I attend. Most are eventually driven off by the bad taste left by the anti-Pentecostal mockery coming from the pulpit.

What does believing God is no longer giving certain gifts have to do with believing God still does supernatural things?

I believe God still uses the gift of languages from time to time, but I don't believe He is giving the gift to people. Just like I believe God is still healing, and does this at times through the prayers of the saints, but, I don't believe He is giving the gift.

And I am sorry that your leadership lacks tact. That was a problem in the church I just left. Some pretty insulting things being said. Like calling California the "land of fruits and nuts." Its true, to be sure, but that doesn't mean it has to be said in the pulpit.

My advice would be either say something to them or find another church where the leadership simply teaches the Bible.

Few if any of those being driven off 'speak in tongues' or claim any 'gift of prophecy'.

As if you would know that.

IF they don't do it, why would they have a problem against it being taught against?

They just like to raise their hands and shout for joy when they sing praises to their God.

Oh...them people.

However, from the pulpit comes the clear message that there is no room for them in the SBC.

There is no room in the SBC for people who engage in ecstatic speech.

You understand that doctrinal purity is a must, right? Wasn't it this thread where a Sunday School teacher was teaching about a "Heavenly language?" THat's a recruiter for the charismatic church.

You lectured me on the importance of Eschatology to Sotierology.

Not finished with that yet.

Now it is my turn to point out why at least one SBC is hemoraging visators

I don't see a problem with people who want to engage in ecstatic speech going down the road. Obviously not interested in what the Bible teaches.

Kind of reminds me someone...

it is more a Galatians 15:5 issue than a defense of good theology.

I wasn't aware that Galatians had 15 chapters.

Of course, if you believe God is still giving revelation, I guess it's possible...

... But you just keep on defending the Baptist right to hate non-cessationists.

On the contrary, I have never advocated anyone hate anyone.

But you have to understand I view not being honest with people and telling them the truth about their error is what I view as one of the purest forms of hatred available to man. It signifies "I don't care a bit whether you go to Hell or not."

As far as Baptists go, the SBC is one group of Baptist I view as a better choice over other Baptist groups. Doesn't mean you aren't going to have a nitwit as a Pastor here and there, lol. But every fellowship is different. It sounds like you might have the same problem I was having with the leadership at my former fellowship. Perhaps it might be wise to find a different place to worship. I know for me it became pretty intolerable. We haven't found a new Church Home, but we're looking.


God bless.

 

[atpollard]

Oh...them people.

No, not "them people" ... therein lies the problem.

 

[Darrell C]

No, not "them people" ... therein lies the problem.

It was a little humor.

Very little, but humor all the same.

Lighten up already.



I thought this...

atpollard said: ↑

it is more a Galatians 15:5 issue than a defense of good theology.

I wasn't aware that Galatians had 15 chapters.

Of course, if you believe God is still giving revelation, I guess it's possible...

...was hilarious. Get it? God giving new revelation? 15 chapters in Galatians?

Terrible when you have to explain your own humor.

Okay, have to go, so have a blessed day in the Lord.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Except for the area of cessationism, where no real effort is made to actually examine scripture ... one just immediately leaps to slandering anyone who dares to hold a contrary view.

A lot depends on how we define that term, for many who hold to the sign gifts ceased after Apostolic Age, like myself, would still see God doing divine healings, miracles, guidance, but its HIM doing that, based in his will, not someone gifted by Him to be doing it!

 

[Yeshua1]

That would only be true of the hyper charismatic. There are conservative charismatic groups who share in identical views with other groups on essential doctrines. Those who do think God is still giving revelation are easily identifiable, and are to be rejected. Doesn't mean we can or should badmouth all charismatics. I don't see their babblings as any different than the babblings of those who try to assert their superiority but are equally as ignorant of God's Word. The only difference being is I cannot parse the babblings of charismatics.


God bless.

I would see those such as Assemblies of God as teaching within the bounds of Christian orthodoxy, but many modern Charasmatics, like those in WoF/Prosperity would not be!

 

[Yeshua1]

Let's face it, Charismatics and Pentecostals have brought reproach upon themselves in their doctrine and practice. We have entire channels devoted to non-stop preaching of health/wealth name it and claim it nonsense. Most see through the charade and see that most of these folks have one intent...money. "Send us your best donation and we will send you a prayer cloth, and you pray your troubles over the cloth and send it back and we'll burn all your troubles."

There are conservative charismatics who are pretty sound in most areas, and even with those who embrace ecstatic speech, there are many who sincerely believe ecstatic speech is Biblical. That's because they are taught this by those who have the rule over them, their leadership. And it is customary for people to trust the leadership in the fellowships where they turned to Christ.

And they can do three things to help themselves: study, study, study.

I agree it's not good to simply badmouth people, but, I don't see Baptists pointing out doctrinal error as smearing mud. It is our job to confront false doctrine.


God bless.

I have not been just "bad mouthing people", but adressing the very real problem of there being dubious and highly suspect theology held to by many leaders and so called teachers with modern "Charismatic Chaos"

 

[Darrell C]

I would see those such as Assemblies of God as teaching within the bounds of Christian orthodoxy, but many modern Charasmatics, like those in WoF/Prosperity would not be!

That was the point.

I have not been just "bad mouthing people", but adressing the very real problem of there being dubious and highly suspect theology held to by many leaders and so called teachers with modern "Charismatic Chaos"

Just to let you know, making derisive statements with a "!" at the end is simply badmouthing. If you want to address something you first show the error then you show, from Scripture, why it is error.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

That was the point.




Just to let you know, making derisive statements with a "!" at the end is simply badmouthing. If you want to address something you first show the error then you show, from Scripture, why it is error.


God bless.

Big errors within much of Charismatic Chaos would be a different Gospel, different Jesus, ongoing revelations, and a disregard of the scriptures as being sole and final authority for doctrines/practices!

 

[Joseph shall add]

Whom do you think the Luke warm are? Do you think they have any gifts?
Christ said my sheep hear my voice. And revelation is from Christ? He is the spirit of Revelation, it is declared in the book of revelation.

 

[Yeshua1]

Whom do you think the Luke warm are? Do you think they have any gifts?
Christ said my sheep hear my voice. And revelation is from Christ? He is the spirit of Revelation, it is declared in the book of revelation.

ALL Christians have one or more spiritual gifts granted to them by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Joseph shall add]

Have you missed this part of the scriptures. You are now spirit and grafted into Israel. Some one spoke of manna. The manna that God now sends his his sons flesh. As in the word of God. Israels walk in the desert is you walk, They were baptized under the Cloud, under the fire and in the water. You are baptized under a cloud of witnesses, Under the fires of the Holy Spirit and in waters of Christ Spirit.