Does a "Clean Energy" disaster loom off our coasts?

[Van]

I wrote about economics, not politics, Van.

And I got news for you and others who seem to be worshippers of Donald Trump, he is not gonna be your political savior. If, unfortunately, he does win in the general election, there will not be a unicorn in every backyard nor a rainbow over every house.

On and on you fabricate and post falsehoods such as we seem to worship DJT. Once again addressing and disparaging your opponents rather than addressing our positions.

Good grief, the Democrats are responsible for high gas prices, high inflation, high border crossings, and the high loss of life in two unnecessary wars. Did I address economics and politics? You bet!

 

[JonC]

Problem is there are no viable choices in this two party system.

Christians may set aside their faith to vote Democrat (I suspect many will because they dislike Trump). But as it stands the DNC platform is openly demonic.

Christians may set aside their faith to vote for Trump. They view him as the best opportunity to protect our nation against the platform of the DNC.

Both sides are pawns...."sheeple".



If you haven't then read 1984. Both set of pawns engage in "double-think".

I saw Republicans calling out Biden for disrespecting those who died in his Afghanistan withdrawal by saying nobody died during his watch.

But then I saw Trump claim nobody died in Afghanistan during his last 18 months in office.....ignoring 12 soldiers who died in Afghanistan.

It's all politics and sheeple.

Trump did not call white supermists "fine" people, did not refee to Mexicans in general as rapists and murders....etc. and Democrats know this. But they "believe" otherwise.

Trump did not have the best economy in decades, did not lower the national debt, did not give us covid vaccines (although his policies helped), did not have the conversation with Willie Brown in the helicopter, didn't have a lower crime administration....etc....and Republicans know this. But they choose to "believe" otherwise.


The choice right now is not what would be good for the United States but what would be "less bad". It is choosing not to pick one party.


As a non-voter I have no dog in the hunt because both parties are self-serving world powers. Our nation will be for the worse regardless. That is how the "powers of this age" work.

But I am also able to refrain from double-think. I view lying to get a vote the most serious form of voter fraud out there.

 

[JonC]

Sorry, but I could not make sense of this. If we export a million barrels less than we import, that makes us a net importer.

Typo......the US is a net exporter of oil.

"In 2023, the United States exported about 10.15 million b/d of petroleum to 173 countries and 3 U.S. territories (American Samoa, Puerto Rico, and U.S. Virgin Islands). Crude oil exports of about 4.06 million b/d accounted for 40% of total U.S. gross petroleum exports. The resulting total net petroleum imports (imports minus exports) were about -1.64 million b/d, which means that the United States was a net petroleum exporter of 1.64 million b/d" (EIA)

 

[KenH]

the Democrats are responsible for high gas prices, high inflation, high border crossings, and the high loss of life in two unnecessary wars.

Van, the Republicans have been in control of the House and the Senate and the presidency a lot during the 21st century, and things have not exactly been a bowl of cherries in the United States, nor the world, when the Republicans have been in positions of power.

The United States does not run the world, regardless of the desires of the neoconservatives.

Now it may simply be the best of an ugly contest, but the United States has the best economy in the world currently.

Donald Trump told the Republicans to kill the immigration bill, a subject that the Congress has not addressed in around 40 years. And the issue is still not addressed because of Donald Trump and weak-kneed Republicans.

Inflation is caused by the Federal Reserve increasing the money supply beyond the increase in productivity, and a lot of that increase is because of the profligate spending of the Republicans and the Democrats in Congress, that they do not have the courage to raise the revenue to pay for.

 

[Van]

Typo......the US is a net exporter of oil.

"In 2023, the United States exported about 10.15 million b/d of petroleum to 173 countries and 3 U.S. territories (American Samoa, Puerto Rico, and U.S. Virgin Islands). Crude oil exports of about 4.06 million b/d accounted for 40% of total U.S. gross petroleum exports. The resulting total net petroleum imports (imports minus exports) were about -1.64 million b/d, which means that the United States was a net petroleum exporter of 1.64 million b/d" (EIA)

I now understand the claim, but I doubt its validity. When Russia invaded Ukraine, gasoline prices in Europe rose about 160% in Europe and about 90% in the USA. If we were net exporters of crude oil, then an increase in import price will not cause the huge increase. One would think we would offset the cost of importing foreign oil with the price of higher export. Something does not add up, and I do not trust in things that do not ring true. Are we buying high price import oil, and selling low price export oil?

Is this the claim, thus passing the cost of this insane business practice to USA consumers?

 

[JonC]

I now understand the claim, but I doubt its validity. When Russia invaded Ukraine, gasoline prices in Europe rose about 160% in Europe and about 90% in the USA. If we were net exporters of crude oil, then an increase in import price will not cause the huge increase. One would think we would offset the cost of importing foreign oil with the price of higher export. Something does not add up, and I do not trust in things that do not ring true. Are we buying high price import oil, and selling low price export oil?

Is this the claim, thus passing the cost of this insane business practice to USA consumers?

I don't think that is the claim.

I just looked on several government and oil companies and that was what the US exported and imported.

It made me curious so I looked into the reason why. There were several.

One was thar it was cost effective to export oil from the US Virgin Islands to Mexico (St Croix's main income is oil prodiction....when I was there I talked with several workers who said they supply all the oil for the Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico, a lot to Florida, but primarily to Mexico).

Another reason was related to foreign trade relations.

Another was that exporting oil helps to keep the cost in the US down (I didn't read why or how).


There were several reasons, but those three I remember.


I have no reason to doubt those numbers. Every official site I have seen has the same numbers.

And @KenH is right that oil production in the US is at a level that surpasses the past.

It seems to me that if we were to increase production for domestic use we could gain oil independence.

 

[Van]

Van, the Republicans have been in control of the House and the Senate and the presidency a lot during the 21st century, and things have not exactly been a bowl of cherries in the United States, nor the world, when the Republicans have been in positions of power.

The United States does not run the world, regardless of the desires of the neoconservatives.

Now it may simply be the best of an ugly contest, but the United States has the best economy in the world currently.

Donald Trump told the Republicans to kill the immigration bill, a subject that the Congress has not addressed in around 40 years. And the issue is still not addressed because of Donald Trump and weak-kneed Republicans.

Inflation is caused by the Federal Reserve increasing the money supply beyond the increase in productivity, and a lot of that increase is because of the profligate spending of the Republicans and the Democrats in Congress, that they do not have the courage to raise the revenue to pay for.

Folks, this poster just posts the talking points, all fictional, of the godless left.

When have the Republicans been in control of the House, Senate and White House during the 21st century. Under the RINO G. W. Bush, 2003 - 2007 and for two years under DJT, 2017 - 2019. Since when is six out of twenty-four equated with "a lot?"

Did anyone say the USA "runs the world?" Please provide a quote or admit you fabricated yet another strawman argument.

The US economy was better in the pre-covid years under Mr. Trump then our sick economy now.

The "allow numerous migrants" before enforcing our border bill was a fig leaf bill to provide political cover for the open border Democrats.

Inflation was caused by the Biden/Harris administration's failed domestic (war on fossil fuel) and foreign (failure to preclude Russia's invasion of Ukraine and Iran's proxy war on Israel) policies.

The Biden/Harris administration inherited an inflation rate of 1.4%, but their feckless policies resulted in crushing inflation.

 

[JonC]

Here are a few interesting points:

US imported oil peaked in 2005. Since that time oil production in the US has continually increased.

Because of logistical, regulatory, and quality considerations, exporting some petroleum is the most economical way to meet the market's needs. For example, refiners in the U.S. Gulf Coast region frequently find that it makes economic sense to export some of their gasoline to Mexico rather than shipping it to the U.S. East Coast because lower-cost gasoline imports from Europe may be available to the East Coast.


Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

 

[Van]

I don't think that is the claim.

I just looked on several government and oil companies and that was what the US exported and imported.
It made me curious so I looked into the reason why. There were several.

One was thar it was cost effective to export oil from the US Virgin Islands to Mexico (St Croix's main income is oil prodiction....when I was there I talked with several workers who said they supply all the oil for the Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico, a lot to Florida, but primarily to Mexico).

Another reason was related to foreign trade relations.

Another was that exporting oil helps to keep the cost in the US down (I didn't read why or how).

There were several reasons, but those three I remember.
I have no reason to doubt those numbers. Every official site I have seen has the same numbers.
And @KenH is right that oil production in the US is at a level that surpasses the past.

It seems to me that if we were to increase production for domestic use we could gain oil independence.

I do not believe any government source information with the godless left in control. They make fictional claims all the time, recall the Laptop was likely Russian disinformation? Or the Democrats had evidence Mr. Trump was a Russian agent? Or the number of jobs? I could go on and on.

1) I do not see how exporting oil which requires importing oil keeps costs down when imported oil is higher priced.

2) Bribing countries with low cost crude oil does not keep our price down.

3) We export finished petroleum products and natural gas to Mexico, but we import crude oil.

 

[JonC]

I do not believe any government source information with the godless left in control. They make fictional claims all the time, recall the Laptop was likely Russian disinformation? Or the Democrats had evidence Mr. Trump was a Russian agent? I could go on and on.

1) I do not see how exporting oil which requires importing oil keeps costs down when imported oil is higher priced.

2) Bribing countries with low cost crude oil does not keep our price down.

3) We export finished petroleum products and natural gas to Mexico, but we import crude oil.

If all oil was the same then you'd have a point.

The reason is importing oil from Europe is cheaper (the oil has a higher sulfur content, "sour oil").

The issue is infrastructure. The US has refineries capable of refining the cheaper oil (which produces less gasoline, btw) but we do not have the infrastructure to transport the "sweet oil" (pipelines). Other countries lack the infrastructure to meet their needs by refining "sour oil".

 

[KenH]

When have the Republicans been in control of the House, Senate and White House during the 21st century. Under the RINO G. W. Bush, 2003 - 2007 and for two years under DJT, 2017 - 2019. Since when is six out of twenty-four equated with "a lot?"

I was not referring to controlling all three at the same time. But, since you brought it up, the Democrats only controlled all three at the same time for even less years - four years versus six years for Republicans - President Obama, 2009-2010, and President Biden, 2021-2022.

Did anyone say the USA "runs the world?"

You were the one that claimed the United States government, while Joe Biden has been president, was responsible for Vladimir Putin's decision to invade Ukraine and for Hamas' attack on Israel - if those are the two wars to which you are referring. I seriously doubt that President Biden told Putin to invade Ukraine nor Hamas to attack Israel. Seems to me the blame lies for those two things on Putin and Hamas.

The US economy was better in the pre-covid years under Mr. Trump then our sick economy now.

GDP change per year:

President Trump:

2017 - +2.5%
2018 - +3.0%
2019 - +2.5%
2020 - -2.2%

President Biden:

2021 - +5.8%
2022 - +1.9%
2023 - +2.5%

If one excludes 2020 and 2021 due to the worldwide pandemic, Trump's average for the three years before then was +2.7%, while Biden's average for the two years after then was +2.2%. Thus, not really much difference.

The "allow numerous migrants" before enforcing our border bill was a fig leaf bill to provide political cover for the open border Democrats.

Mere political talking points by Van to cover the failure of weak-kneed Republicans in the Congress to stand up to Donald Trump's opposition to improving border security.

Inflation was caused by the Biden/Harris administration's failed domestic (war on fossil fuel) and foreign (failure to preclude Russia's invasion of Ukraine and Iran's proxy war on Israel) policies.

The Biden/Harris administration inherited an inflation rate of 1.4%, but their feckless policies resulted in crushing inflation.

Generally speaking, the only impacts that Presidents have on a general rise in the level of prices is:

1) Proposing additional spending that the Congress passes, without offsetting it with spending cuts elsewhere or raising revenue to pay for it.

2) Signing the spending bills and tax bills passed by the Congress that result in a budget deficit, to the extend that it is monetized by the Federal Reserve.

Inflation is caused by the Federal Reserve increasing the money supply beyond the increase in productivity, and a lot of that increase is because of the profligate spending of the Republicans and the Democrats in Congress, that they do not have the courage to raise the revenue to pay for.

 

[Van]

If all oil was the same then you'd have a point.

The reason is importing oil from Europe is cheaper (the oil has a higher sulfur content, "sour oil").

The issue is infrastructure. The US has refineries capable of refining the cheaper oil (which produces less gasoline, btw) but we do not have the infrastructure to transport the "sweet oil" (pipelines). Other countries lack the infrastructure to meet their needs by refining "sour oil".

So you are saying imported crude oil is cheaper the pumping domestic oil? Thus by importing more oil, we would lower gasoline price, but by "drill baby drill" we will raise the price of oil? I doubt it.

If we lack the refining capacity to refine our domestic crude, the problem is probably the regulatory barrier to building what we need, due to the Democrats.

 

[JonC]

I was not referring to controlling all three at the same time. But, since you brought it up, the Democrats only controlled all three at the same time for even less years - four years versus six years for Republicans - President Obama, 2009-2010, and President Biden, 2021-2022.



You were the one that claimed the United States government, Joe Biden has been president, was responsible for Vladimir Putin's decision to invade Ukraine and for Hamas' attack on Israel - if those are the two wars to which you are referring. I seriously doubt that President Biden told Putin to invade Ukraine nor Hamas to attack Israel. Seems to me the blame lies for those two things on Putin and Hamas.



GDP change per year:

President Trump:

2017 - +2.5%
2018 - +3.0%
2019 - +2.5%
2020 - -2.2%

President Biden:

2021 - +5.8%
2022 - +1.9%
2023 - +2.5%

If one excludes 2020 and 2021 due to the worldwide pandemic, Trump's average for the three years before then was +2.7%, while Biden's average for the two years after then was +2.2%. Thus, not really much difference.



Mere political talking points by Van to cover the failure of weak-kneed Republicans in the Congress to stand up to Donald Trump's opposition to improving border security.



The only impacts that Presidents have on a general rise in the level of prices is:

1) Proposing additional spending that the Congress passes, without offsetting it with spending cuts elsewhere or raising revenue to pay for it.

2) Signing the spending bills and tax bills passed by the Congress that result in a budget deficit, to the extend that it is monetized by the Federal Reserve.

Inflation is caused by the Federal Reserve increasing the money supply beyond the increase in productivity, and a lot of that increase is because of the profligate spending of the Republicans and the Democrats in Congress, that they do not have the courage to raise the revenue to pay for.

We can't just look at the GDP.

The POTUS can also influence the national debt.

We have to look at both factors- GDP to debt as a ratio.

Increasing the GDP while increasing debt is problematic if the increase in GDP is not significantly higher than the increase in debt.


Harris said inflation was lower over these last 4 years. It isn't.

 

[KenH]

So you are saying imported crude oil is cheaper the pumping domestic oil? Thus by importing more oil, we would lower gasoline price, but by "drill baby drill" we will raise the price of oil? I doubt it.

If we lack the refining capacity to refine our domestic crude, the problem is probably the regulatory barrier to building what we need, due to the Democrats.

I spent 39 years working in the oil industry, and three summers during college before that. All crude oil is not the same.

Sour crude oil is cheaper than sweet crude oil. Refineries in the U.S. converted years and years ago to being able to refine the sour crude oil because they could make more money in doing so, not because of any "regulatory barrier".

 

[JonC]

So you are saying imported crude oil is cheaper the pumping domestic oil? Thus by importing more oil, we would lower gasoline price, but by "drill baby drill" we will raise the price of oil? I doubt it.

If we lack the refining capacity to refine our domestic crude, the problem is probably the regulatory barrier to building what we need, due to the Democrats.

Not than pumping. Importing "sour oil" is cheaper than using domestically produced "sweet oil" in absence of the infrastructure (a pipeline).

From what I have read switching the refining process is not a big deal, but the lack of infrastructure is a big deal.

I'm sure other things factor in (like what we are getting for exporting a low sulfur content oil....and greed....and politics).

But basically we need a pipeline.

 

[KenH]

We can't just look at the GDP.

I didn't say we should just look at GDP.

The POTUS can also influence the national debt.

I didn't say that he couldn't.

We have to look at both factors- GDP to debt as a ratio.

Increasing the GDP while increasing debt is problematic if the increase in GDP is not significantly higher than the increase in debt.

Yes, but the total amount of national debt cannot be ignored. Even with economic growth, it would be foolish for the United States to keep doubling the national debt as it did from 2014 to 2014.

Harris said inflation was lower over these last 4 years. It isn't.

You would have to quote the exact comment, but I imagine she was meaning that the rate of inflation has come down from the high it reached when the U.S. economy came out of the greatly depressed economic activity during the worldwide pandemic and resumed normal activities again.

 

[JonC]

I spent 39 years working in the oil industry, and three summers during college before that. All crude oil is not the same.

Sour crude oil is cheaper than sweet crude oil. Refineries in the U.S. converted years and years ago to being able to refine the sour crude oil because they could make more money in doing so, not because of any "regulatory barrier".

Accountant for the oil industry?

 

[JonC]

I didn't say we should just look at GDP.



I didn't say that he couldn't.



Yes, but the total amount of national debt cannot be ignored. Even with economic growth, it would be foolish for the United States to keep doubling the national debt as it did from 2014 to 2014.



You would have to quote the exact comment, but I imagine she was meaning that the rate of inflation has come down from the high it reached when the U.S. economy came out of the greatly depressed economic activity during the worldwide pandemic and resumed normal activities again.

I'm simply saying that knowing the GDP is meaningless on its own (like knowing the national debt is meaningless on its own).

If we had a debt of 500 trillion but a GDP of 900 trillion then we'd be good. But if we had a debt of 100 million and a GDP of 1 million there would be an issue.

Look at it this way.....if you owe $500,000 in debt and make $600,000 a year you are not in as bad of shape as you would be if you owed $2000,000 in debt and made 29,000 a year.

What I'd like to know is the GDP to debt ratio between both administrations.

I know Trump brought the debt up to record levels. And I know Biden continued the trend.

 

[Van]

I was not referring to controlling all three at the same time.

Split control results in the Dems and the RINO's producing disastrous programs.

. I seriously doubt that President Biden told Putin to invade Ukraine nor Hamas to attack Israel. Seems to me the blame lies for those two things on Putin and Hamas.

The foreign policy of the Biden/Harris administration resulted in "failure to preclude Russia's invasion of Ukraine and Iran's proxy war on Israel."

If one excludes 2020 and 2021 due to the worldwide pandemic, Trump's average for the three years before then was +2.7%, while Biden's average for the two years after then was +2.2%. Thus, not really much difference.

True

The fig leaf border bill was a, wait for it, fig leaf.

Generally speaking, the only impacts that Presidents have on a general rise in the level of prices [are]

1) Deficient spending of wasteful programs like the "green new deal."

2) Waging a war on fossil fuel, increasing energy prices.


Blaming the Fed for inflation is the talking point of the Blame-shifter Democrats.

 

[KenH]

Accountant for the oil industry?

Yes. I spent about 30 of those years accounting for the crude oil supply for our two U.S. refineries - pipelines, exchanges, foreign crude oil ships, also some oil lease accounting, and also about 4 years or so accounting for one of the refineries and its activities, as well as a little bit of ethanol plant supply, during our brief foray into that world. The last 4 years were just kind of a hodgepodge of different accounting stuff until I was put out to pasture in late January 2017, when the company had a reduction in office staff.