Does a Person Have to Have a Born-Again Experience?

[saturneptune]

I can remember to this day how and when the Holy spirit suddenly turned on my 'light bulb" to finally realise I was a sinner, and Only Kesus could save me, but have no calendar date for that!

IF she is walking with the ord now, and knows that Jesus died for her sins and is her Lord, then she has had the 'born again experience!"

Danger is when we say "you MUST know the time and date"

Like what CS lewis Wrote, that one day walked into Oxford unsaved, and walked abck out saved!

All I can do is relate my experience with Jesus Christ, and my salvation. I grew up in a PCA(Presbyterian Church of America) church in Gulfport, MS. When I was about twelve or so, a group of us went to what was called a communicant's class. It lasted about three months. When done, we had learned how to answer several questions, such as "what is the chief end of man?" and other such questions about basic Christianity and the Gospel. To join the church, we went before the session, a board of elders, and answered the questions, then answered the questions in front of the congregation. After the session and congregation voted their approval of us, voila, we were members of the Presbyterian Church, and by implication, saved.

Time passed. I got married in 1977, and a few years later, decided I was tired of going to separate churches and joined my wife's Baptist church. Of course, I had to be rebaptized and once again be voted on by a congregation, and again, I am a member of a church and saved. Well again, time passes, and I take on different ministries in the church. That is certainly not the rest of the story.

In November 1994, we had a revival. You can probably see where this is going. We had a speaker whose last name was Pelke, and he had been a missionary to China. The first night his message greatly irritated me, and I cannot even remember why. I told my wife I was not going back, but I did. The second night, when he described in detail the gap between sinful man (Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23) and a Holy God, something got my undivided attention. That was the first time in my life I ever pictured me or man in general in that state. God cannot tolerate sin, and the penalty of the Lake of Fire is severe. He went on to explain Romans 6:23 and Romans 10:9-12, of how God loved us so much, He sent His Son as a sacrifice for our sins, and the pain and suffering God Himself went through for the likes of me. He concluded explaining repentance of faith in Jesus Christ. Although not understanding it completely at the time, and we never totally understand the depths of God's love, it hit me like a ton of bricks that my life was lost. All I had done in my earlier life was memorize some questions, and never met Jesus Christ eye to eye, repented and was saved. I believe to this day God sent that man to me, and that He even gave me the faith to see that huge gap between man and God.

As has been said here, I did not experience a rush of adrenaline, bells did not ring, Mary did not appear. I did know the Lord had saved me through His mercy. By the way, at the same service, two deacons were saved that had been Baptists all their life.

This post especially, had better be left alone by the two that follow me around, with no demeaning remarks about my salvation.

 

[InTheLight]

I would say this:

John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

If you became a child of God, at one point in time you were not a child of God.

I hope everyone can answer the question, "When did you become a child of God?"

Not necessarily a date and time (though in my case it was March 13, 1971) but at least remember something like, "the summer of 1982" or some such, otherwise I would question if someone was truly born again.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The new birth is a fact. An experience it is not as in having an experience. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Your error here is that, while the ancients didn't "know from where [the wind] comes", they did know that it blew, and when.

 

[percho]

thisnumbersdisconnected





No....Judith is correct

[/FONT][/SIZE]

Amen Brother.


Only as you and others seek to re-fine it.




Words are important



Completely wrong..a fabrication on your part...here is the fact of the matter;
From W.E. Best-

Amen brother.
Methinks if we must have a part in our being born from above/again then Jesus would have used a different term.

Did we have a part in our being born of the flesh?

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Not sure if this will help or not...

I have a sister who ... doesn't seem to grasp the concept of having that born-again experience. You know, that come to Jesus moment, when you realize you have sinned; he died for that sin; the repentance of the sin; and asking Him to be your Savior!

Allow me to give you my entry into Christianity.

I grew up in a Southern Baptist church. (Several, over the years, actually.) I was in 'Cradle Roll' and went to services pretty much every Sunday and Wednesday until I was enlisted and couldn't get places all the time. My folks taught me to pray at meals and at bedtime and the reason for doing so. I cannot remember a time when I didn't consider Jesus my Savior and God my Father and leader. Just for the tally books, I have active memories back to when I was three years old. Don't ever remember not 'knowing Jesus'.

I made a public profession of faith and was baptized in early 1959. But I cannot tell you or anyone the exact time and date of the 'Lord Jesus, come into my heart' prayer. I've met other Christians with a similar background who have the same basic story.

For one who has accepted Jesus as an adult or teenager, I think it would be different. For one who has committed volitional sin after the age of consent, the 'application' to Jesus for salvation would be far more memorable.

Does your sister claim to be a child of God, through the sacrificial death of Jesus?

Has she, of her own volition, formed the 'oral contract' between her and Jesus; acknowledging her sin, offering repentance and desiring forgiveness?

Has she been baptized publicly as a 'demonstration' of her intent and allegiance?

If so, what more is needed? If not, you need to guide her a bit in this.

Either way, I'll pray for the both of you.

 

[righteousdude2]

That is great advice...

The Bible gives us four primary criteria by which we may know that we are saved:

1. Our testimony
2. Our doctrine
3. Our fruit
4. Our sanctification

Whenever I see this question, I'm always reminded of when I was a kid and we would spend the weekend in Gulf Shores. We owned a house there (still do, but I live too far away to use it now) and every Friday night, I would wait for my dad to get home so we could pile in the car and go.

But because it was so late, I was often asleep when he got home. I don't remember him picking me up and putting me in the car, putting a pillow under me, the long drive, him taking me out of the car or carrying me up to my bed and tucking me in, still asleep. All I know is that I fell asleep in Hueytown, trusting my dad to get me to Gulf Shores and woke up in Gulf Shores.

Not a great analogy, but to put it in Biblical terms, "All I know is that I was blind and now I see".

The Bible gives us four primary criteria by which we may know that we are saved:

1. Our testimony
2. Our doctrine
3. Our fruit
4. Our sanctification

I would ask your sister what she believes now about her sin and about her standing with God now. What is her attitude toward her sin? Is she grieved by it? Is she warring against it? Has she repented?

I would ask her a couple of questions about her doctrine and I'd explain to her that the Bible tells us to examine ourselves and to make our calling and election sure from time to time, so that she doesn't feel like she's on trial.

The other two (fruit and sanctification) are something you'll have to observe for yourself. I trust your judgement.

....thanks JDF, RD2 understands what you said, and I like it. :wavey:

 

[righteousdude2]

Thanks Bro....

You're kidding me, right? Good grief!!

John 3, NASB
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again' ."​

How could you possibly ask "what born again experience?" It's one of the most basic tenets of faith!"Dangerous" to teach that someone must be born again? Are you getting hung up on the word "experience"? If you are, that's ludicrous. Being born again is an experience. Even if there aren't "flashing lights, bells and whistles, angels heard on high" we still know at least the approximate time that we first believed in Jesus as Savior.

Maybe we can't pin it down to a day or an an hour or even a week or month, but we know when our life change began with some proximation. We know when we realized, at least, that we were thinking differently, actin differently, seeing a change in our attitude and our priorities. If we don't see such changes, then it is doubtful anyone else does either, and if others don't see it, then we have to wonder, "Is there really a Presence within me that I can know is the Holy Spirit?" If we can't answer that question affirmatively, we haven't had the experience.He also said, as I quoted here, 'Your must be born again,' and in the Greek, that is a personal action verb. It is a declaration we make based on the Holy Spirit drawing, calling and enabling our faith, but we have that small assenting piece in the process. No, it does not come from us, because left aside to ourselves, we would never seek Christ. But when the Holy Spirit's power draws us to the truth, opens our minds to it, our inner spirit must see that truth for what it is, and that is the moment of belief, the moment we are "born again." We are not "born again" until we acknowledge, through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, that we are a sinner in need of a Savior who is Christ the Lord.

....both you and HAMel have the answer to what I was asking. One must accept Jesus, to be saved. We are already to be saved, but we must exercise our faith by asking, recieving and following! :applause::applause::applause:

 

[DHK]

Thank you for the kind welcome.
I cannot put an exact date as in a day on my salvation. It does not even interest me. I do not look back for some experience or date. My experience is the present based on scripture.

We are encouraged in Scripture to remember the past. That is one reason we have the OT to study. It was written for our admonition. All the Word of God is inspired, all of its history, all of its past history.
In the same way we need to look to our own past. A successful person learns from his past mistakes. There is no such thing as "living in the present," if there is no past. It can't be done. One's spiritual life has a definite beginning and in this physical life an end, although spiritually it never ends. It is impossible to be a Christian "all of one's life." It is important to be able to look back to the beginning and at the journey: the ups and down, the victories, the temptations and trials that Christ has led you through. If you have no past you have no testimony--nothing to share.

The Ethiopian Eunuch would never forget the day he was saved/born again, and then baptized in the middle of the desert.
Lydia, a seller of purple, would never forget the day that she met Paul, heard the gospel; that same day that the Lord "opened her heart," and she was saved.
The Philippian jailer would never forget that memorable date when the chains fell of Paul and Silas, and he trembling asked them how to be saved. Saved on that very evening he took them home where he was later baptized. How could he ever forget? His family believed and was baptized also.
Would the 3,000 ever forget their salvation experience/born again experience on the day of Pentecost. I don't believe so.

I was born again almost 44 years ago. I remember where I was, who led me to the Lord, the exact date, and the approximate time. It is important to be able to remember something about the time when you became a child of God, a part of the bride of Christ. (I also remember who I am married to, and when I got married). It is not that much different.

Marvel not

that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
In other words do not get all spiritual or caught up over the new birth.

No, he is stressing the utmost importance of the new birth. He says "you must be born again" three times in these few verses. This is one of them. It is imperative that you be born again. Don't brush it off so lightly.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The speaks to the result of the new birth, not the experience.
Do you experience the wind once it passes, that is have you experienced the result? What if the wind was a hurricane? Then you would have experienced the result of the wind! But you would not necessarily have seen it coming.

There is no experience that comes with the new birth. There is evidence that comes because of it, but no experience. Repentance and faith do not require a physical action. Both are done in spirit. I realize that most churches today lean on experience as in coming forward, praying a prayer, and so forth, but it is not required for salvation which is given at the new birth with no particular experience in regards to the OP question.

Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin.
Paul told the Philippian jailer:
"Believe (have faith) in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
We are saved by faith.
"Being justified by faith we have peace with God."
It is faith in the gospel message. Peter says:
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--One cannot be born again without the Word of God, and faith in that Word (the gospel message). It is an impossibility.

You mentioned Paul and Peter. Paul never points to the new birth when telling the story. His salvation could have happend after that while he was waiting on Ananias to speak to him.

Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin. Where was Paul when Stephen was being stoned?

Acts 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
--He was the one in charge condoning the entire fiasco. He held the clothes. It was a symbolic action of the one giving permission for this deed to take place. He had the authority.

Then, soon after that, on the road to Damascus, when Christ appears to Him, he calls him Lord, and submits to Him as Lord, and then asks Him: "Lord what will you have me to do." A Pharisee of the Pharisees, a member of the Sanhedrin would never submit to Christ as Lord unless the Lord Himself had regenerated him completely. He was saved at that time in history, not after.

Neither does Peter claim an experience at salvation.

Peter teaches that one is born again by the Word of God, and faith in it.
Peter also teaches that the Word of God, and faith in the Word of God is more important than any experience. He tells us that the Word is greater than his experience of seeing Christ in his glory on the Mount of Transfiguration. (2Pet.1:16-20)
2 Peter 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

There is no experience associated with the new birth. Such teachings are an error of the charismatic movement. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
The new birth is evidenced in our daily living, not in an experience.

I am dead set against the Charismatic movement. Those who have been on this board for any length of time can testify to that.
But the new birth is the greatest experience of my life. It was the day that I was born into God's family; the day my sins were forgiven; the day the Lord gave me eternal life and so much more.
Before that time, I had never heard the gospel. Then I heard it; responded to it, and Christ became my Lord and Savior. That is the greatest experience I have ever had and I will never forget it! Why would you ever question it?

 

[righteousdude2]

True, but still wrong

righteousdude2
.

Dude.....how can you possibly question her experience, when you yourself claim an outer body experience yourself? This is the reason your declaration was given a negative response. We are to be scripture based at all times.

.... which proves you do not know me as well as you thought you did!

I know the exact day an time when I was faced with either accepting Jesus as Savior or not, and that was on Christams Eve, in the late afternoon, alongside the road in San Dimas Canyon. Once I discovered that my entire religious expereince was based on traditions and not faith in Him to save me ... a light went on, and I was led in the sinners prayer and I knew that I knew that I was now in His family. I no longer had a religion to save me or hold to, but a RELATIONSHIP with my Savior. A relationship based upon what He did for me on the cross, not what I did in sunday school class or through the membership card my pastor gave me after me passing the classes I took!

I went from religious person to a relationship, and then and only then did I have a legitimate out of body experience. One that I highly thought suspect, and tried to ignore and reason with until, a few weeks later, God sent me through the same exact experience. After that I no longer questioned what I went through, and I have the fruits to stand behind my acceptance of Jesus, the supernatural event I faced, and all the other visions I've had since.

One more thought on the supernatural...I know such things happen, and I am certainly not going to question what God can and does do in the life of His chosen. I think it would be borderline heresy to question what another claims the Holy Ghost has done for them. We may all be enlightened in heaven one day! Just because you didn't see stars and lightening, doesn't mean God doesn't use it. Some folks may be so freaked with light sows, that they may never come to God. Yet others need such events to solidify their faith! God is all things to all people, so I am careful not to judge. I am merely asking what people think about the necessity of having that born again moment. The moment that is actually their spiritual birthday! I'd sa most everyone knows the day they accepted Jesus, and the circumstances involved! That seems most common with most I talk to!

Thanks for asking, ICON, I figured you would be participating in this OP, it is the kind that draws you out! Be safe on the road brother, and don't take your eyes of the road, there are a lot of bad, selfish drivers out there that don't care if they live, or those they endanger live! Praying for you!!!

 

[Iconoclast]

which proves you do not know me as well as you thought you did!

Dude....you are mysterious:thumbs:

I know the exact day an time when I was faced with either accepting Jesus as Savior or not, and that was on Christams Eve, in the late afternoon, alongside the road in San Dimas Canyon. Once I discovered that my entire religious expereince was based on traditions and not faith in Him to save me ... a light went on, and I was led in the sinners prayer and I knew that I knew that I was now in His family. I no longer had a religion to save me or hold to, but a RELATIONSHIP with my Savior. A relationship based upon what He did for me on the cross, not what I did in sunday school class or through the membership card my pastor gave me after me passing the classes I took!

No one was questioning this-

I went from religious person to a relationship, and then and only then did I have a legitimate out of body experience

.

At this point you are outside of orthodoxy.It is an attack on the sufficiency of scripture, and you really have no basis to deny this ladies claim, or Oral Roberts saying he saw a 900 ft Jesus. You can offer explanations but it most likely was sanctified imagination.

One that I highly thought suspect, and tried to ignore and reason with until, a few weeks later, God sent me through the same exact experience. After that I no longer questioned what I went through, and I have the fruits to stand behind my acceptance of Jesus, the supernatural event I faced, and all the other visions I've had since.

I will still reject this...as you cling to it...you know that though.

Thaanks for asking, ICON, I figured you would be participating in this OP, it is the kind that draws you out!

Correct...you notice I have not harassed you.

Be safe on the road brother, and don't take your eyes of the road, there are a lot of bad, selfish drivers out there that don't care if they live, or those they endanger live! Praying for you!!!

In south central Washington St. tonight...load tommorow....you never told me where you are...are you near i-15...near Hesperia?...Still would like to meet over a coffee....that is...if you remain in your body long enough...lol

ps.

.both you and HAMel have the answer to what I was asking. One must accept Jesus, to be saved. We are already to be saved, but we must exercise our faith by asking, recieving and following!

This is the religious language of our day, yet someone asked for it to be shown in scripture and it has not been.

 

[JamesL]

One must accept Jesus, to be saved. We are already to be saved, but we must exercise our faith by asking, recieving and following! :applause::applause::applause:

I take exception to some of this.

Depending on what you mean by "accept Jesus", I may agree or disagree. If by "accept" you mean receive, I would agree. But if by "accept" you mean something active, like "taking a gift" as some people put it, I would disagree.

Jesus used the analogy of different ground. The sower went out sowing seed. the seed was "received" by some. Nowhere did He teach that the ground reaches up and grabs the seed. Paul said some plant the seed and others water, and God makes it grow.

Asking and following as prerequisites to being born again? No scriptural backing for this.

There isn't any scripture that says we must ask to be saved. There was an SBC pastor (David Platt) who said that a "Sinner's Prayer" is superstitious, and I couldn't agree more. It is a cancerous plague that has infected most of Evangelical Christendom.

Following comes after we are born again, it's not a contractual agreement we make before God will seal the deal.

Before this is dismissed outright, let me tell you of my conversion, with some backdrop.

I was raised in a very legalistic church, so much so that I never once heard the reason Jesus died on the cross. When I was 6 years old, I asked "Why did Jesus die on the cross?"
Answer? "He died because He loves you"

Yeah, that's very true. But, I was asking as to the purpose. What was the need? Why was it necessary? I never got an answer.

Everything was works, obedience, commitment, judgment, condemnation, a fear that Jesus was going to come back and I would be left behind to perish. I'll tell you that every time I heard a train horn, I was scared to death. And we lived only 3 blocks from a switching station. LOTS of train horns. I was petrified.

Their prescription for being saved? Come to the front of the church. Admit you're a sinner. Be real sorry. Confess your sins to God. Turn away from your sins. Ask forgiveness for your sins. Ask Jesus to save you. Ask Jesus to come into your heart. Ask Him to be Lord of your life. Commit to living your life to God. Obey God.

There was not one thing mentioned about Jesus dying a substitutionary death. Nothing about the grace of God, except that it's only by the grace of God that anyone would be found good enough to enter.

I can't count the number of times I asked Jesus to save me and come into my heart. If I had to guess at a realistic number, I would say 800 times before I was 12. Funny thing, though. With all the focus on what "I" was supposed to do, "saved" was nothing but a mystical word that meant "in a state of good standing as long as you obey" so this "saved" would only last about two or three days. I was pretty rebellious, but that's another story.

There wasn't anything in the teachings which gave any impression of rescue for a sinner. It was condemnation for a sinner, and woe be to any "saved" person found sinning.

They had all the bad news a sinner could handle, but no good news. The preacher said from the pulpit once, "You can't get to heaven on your mom's salvation or your dad's salvation, no one can get you there but you." And I took that literally - I do it.

Fast forward to when I had become exasperated with trying to be good enough. I quit going to church the day I turned 16. My mom told me I had to be 16 to make that choice, and that's the first choice I made on my birthday. I woke up and said - No More Church. ALRIGHT !!!

When I was 27, my dad was taking my mom to church every week (they had been divorced for years). But he went to jail on a DWI, and it was his 3rd in 10 years, so we knew he was going to prison, which he did.

I called my mom to ask if she needed a ride each week, and she accepted. So we went together. After about 3 weeks, I decided that if I was going to be there every week, I might as well get "saved" again. This would be about the 801st time I was "saved"

So I went through the whole procedure again. But this time was different. I was a grown man now, and I had determination to live my life with all vigor and thrust. I walked out of that church the most self righteous hypocrite you would never want to meet.

It took about 2 months to drive my wife to leave me, and I had alienated every friend except one, and virtually every coworker couldn't stand me. I guess I thought that if I could browbeat everyone around me into perfection, it would make it easier on me.

After my wife left, my only friend got transferred out of town with his job. So I was alone. I started having all sorts of questions start to nag me from within - How do you know God is real? How do you know you're saved? How do you know you're going to make it to heaven? How do you know salvation is even real? How do you know you're even real? How do you know you're not the figment of someone's imagination?

Now, it's not like this was a 5 minute experience while in the throes of divorce depression. This psychological emotional turmoil was nonstop for 6 months. I would be in anguish, trying to get this torment to stop. Have you ever run in circles trying to get away from yourself? I have.

I was seeking answers from anybody who called their self a Christian. And I never got anything. I have no idea how many times I cried myself to sleep, the physical turmoil, with my whole body just feeling "upset" like I was sick. I wasn't necessarily seeking God, just solace. I called in sick to work more in that 6 months than ever before.

Most of my coworkers thought it was because of my impending divorce, but I rarely even thought of that situation. I was a spiritual wreck.

I went to a Christian bookstore, trying to see if I might find answer there, and I did. It was book by Erwin Lutzer - How You Can Be Sure You Will Spend Eternity With God

I thought "I NEED THAT BOOK"

I read it, and he was real clear alright. He started out with how someone can sincerely be on the wrong road, with trust in the wrong thing like self, religion or family ties, etc.

Then he got to the main thing - Jesus saves sinners, with no help from the sinner. Simply trust Him.

HERESY, I thought. There was no way I was going to be convinced that Jesus did all the work to "save" me, and that I don't have to (nor can I) contribute anything. I couldn't believe that God had not struck the man dead for such blasphemy. I tell you, I was incensed over that.

I stated praying with all vigor that God would save that man, so that he wouldn't deceive anyone ever again.

But my spiritual anguish continued incessantly. I had nothing within me anymore. I just wanted to hide. It was fierce.

But something drew me back to Lutzer's book a second time. And again, I rejected the message. God required me to keep myself out of hell, not for Jesus to save me from it.

After another week or so, I picked up Lutzer's book again. But this time, I opened my bible too, so I could check out those bible verses he quoted all through the book. It was different this time, because now I was reading that stuff form God's word. I was amazed at how much scripture said exactly what he had said.

But I was still too proud to acknowledge that I had no part to play. I MUST do something, I thought. But it was as if God were rebutting my objections, with questions:
Can't be that easy - Why Not?
I don't know, it just can't be - Why Can't It?
It's not fair - Where Does The Bible Say That?
There must be something I have to do - What About All Those Bible Verses?

I remember that day, arguing with all my strength that there must be some requirement of me. Something I have to do, some commitment I have to make, some certain ritual I have to perform. But after about a half hour of arguing, while I was driving to work, I was left speechless. No more objections, for I could think of none, They had all beet met by the Word of God, and He won.

And I remember thinking:
So Jesus did it all, huh? And I can't contribute anything. That doesn't make any sense. But I've read those bible verses. I guess He did. And the only hope I have of eternal life is that He actually did everything in my place. Wow, that sounds so off-the-wall. But I have nothing left I can argue. I pondered for another minute or two, and I was convinced.

And I can tell you, what I felt was almost indescribable. Something like all the hair on my head standing straight up, but not quite like that. Almost like being flushed, but not quite like that. Almost like something touching my entire body all at once, but not quite like that. Almost like being wrapped in a warm blanket, but not quite like that. But peace. And assurance. Exactly like that.

And I'll say this also. Any time someone says we have to ask to be saved, I call foul. Big foul.
I wasn't just "not asking" to be saved, I was outright demanding that I not be saved.

I was saved when grace met my futile mind, and the Holy Spirit enlightened me to the realization that all my righteousness was like filthy rags. When He overtook my will to stay a Pharisee, and brought repentance to me. Repentance - a change of thinking - metanoia

From futility to faith. Saved by the grace of God, found in the blood of Jesus Christ, by simply believing.

No asking, no committing, no turning from sin, just faith. Sola Fide is just that - faith, by itself.

Do I think everyone's going to have such a dramatic "experience" as me? Maybe, maybe not. Mine was building for over 20 years, from the time I was 6 years old, asking how can I know I'm going to be in heaven when I die.

Being born again is an experience. But not something we "do"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I would say this:

John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

If you became a child of God, at one point in time you were not a child of God.

I hope everyone can answer the question, "When did you become a child of God?"

Not necessarily a date and time (though in my case it was March 13, 1971) but at least remember something like, "the summer of 1982" or some such, otherwise I would question if someone was truly born again.

Weren't you already His when he selected you from before the foundations of the earth? Then when he atoned for you on the cross .....wasn't that finished? And then when the Spirit stoked
that conscience pilot light?

 

[righteousdude2]

Let's NOT play the semantic game....

I take exception to some of this.

Depending on what you mean by "accept Jesus", I may agree or disagree. If by "accept" you mean receive, I would agree. But if by "accept" you mean something active, like "taking a gift" as some people put it, I would disagree.

Being born again is an experience. But not something we "do"

I think, or at least I hope, that you know what I mean by accept? If you want to call it receive...so be it! I say tomatoes, you say tomatoes! Either way, it is the point that we ask and recieve/accept his gift of grace, and HE comes into our heart and life.

Man, this OP has been like pulling teeth! It seems that everyone wants to play semantics! Well, if that is what y'all want to do, fine. I have no problem, because I believe God knows our heart, and the scripture does say that He takes what is hard for us to put into words, straight to the Father for us!

So, as I welcome you to the BB brother and thank you for your response, let me also say, that we are both on the same train, it's just that we have a different way of saying, "Halellujah!" :smilewinkgrin:

 

[HankD]

My thought is that "born again" is an experience.

The evidence IMO is not that we remember it and the emotions thereof but do we have any evidence of this birth from above.

I do remember the day sitting in my barracks when I finally came to Christ (or He drew me into Himself) after reading the Gospel of John. My life changed completely.

When I look back on my life I see someone different back there before Christ yet I am still the same person with my memory of my former life intact.

I call it my rebirth.


HankD

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Either way, it is the point that we ask and recieve/accept his gift of grace, and HE comes into our heart and life.

I don't believe that's Biblical. Where does the Holy Spirit fit in? What about repentance? What about regeneration? What about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? What about justification?

The way you've phrased it sounds very Arminian.

Man, this OP has been like pulling teeth! It seems that everyone wants to play semantics!

I didn't play semantics. I gave you as clear an answer as I could and you still ignored it.

So maybe you're just looking for something to be offended by.

 

[Van]

I have a sister who is the best servant a pastor could ever hope to have on volunteer staff! And her testimony is next to none!

So what is the problem? She doesn't seem to grasp the concept of having that born-again experience. You know, that come to Jesus moment, when you realize you have sinned; he died for that sin; the repentance of the sin; and asking Him to be your Savior!

How do I approach the born-again experience, and is it all that important? In my way of thinking, it is, but how do the rest of you see this glitch in her testimony? I don't want to "Bruise the fruit" so to speak, or quash her zeal and fervor, but I have a concern that when she shares her love for Jesus with others, and continues to omit a come to Jesus moment, others will feel as me, and wonder if she is basing her relationship on some experiences she had during a crisis, or on accepting Jesus.

I have never run up against this particular problem, and would appreciate your input as to whether I should share with the need to include that come to Jesus moment in her testimony, or if it is something that isn't necessary?

Thanks for your feedback! :thumbs:

I think part of the commentary in this thread stems from the term "born again experience." A "come to Christ" experience seems what you actually have in view.

Since some people think they are saved, i.e. born anew, but are not, i.e. the folks of Matthew 7, I am not sure we apprehend though our physical senses, being spiritually born anew and arising in Christ as a new creation. But we sure can know whether we had a "come to Jesus" moment when we committed ourselves to Christ, to love and serve Him forever.

Many years ago, I evaluated the written testimonies of individuals, and as others have correctly pointed out, I was looking for evidence of a changed life, not a "wonderful" story of conversion.

Ask her how her life changed, when see put her faith in Christ as savior from the penalty for her sins, and committed to follow and serve Christ as a disciple. What old things, if any passed away, and what new things, if any became part of her life. Study and introspection and the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Maybe this was posted earlier but I would like to ask.

"What about the man or woman who testifies that they have never had a memorable experience.....what if they, as far back as they can remember have always claimed that Christ is Lord & have always tried to live in obedience?"

 

[JamesL]

I think, or at least I hope, that you know what I mean by accept? If you want to call it receive...so be it! I say tomatoes, you say tomatoes! Either way, it is the point that we ask and recieve/accept his gift of grace, and HE comes into our heart and life.

I think there are two ways that "accept" are used by believers:
1) acknowledge, agree, as in "Do you accept this truth?" which I take to be passive
2) the other is less clear, but emphasis is typically on something active from man

I agree that in many cases, it is an issue of semantics - tomayto vs. tomahto
If that's the case, I care not to be contentious over which words one uses. Clarity is key, though, and lack of clarity can lead to misconceptions on the part of the hearer.

But sometimes "accept" is used as part of a "response" doctrine, where God has done all that He can to extend an offer, now the burden is placed upon the man to actively obtain it.

I hope you read my whole post. I know it got really long, and I was trying not to write a book. I was saddled, and burdened with every human responsibility one can image, to the point that grace could be found nowhere

It was what I call the "voodoo of you do" - If you do this, and you do that.
Scripture contrasts faith with works, and also declares that we are born, not of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God

So, as I welcome you to the BB brother and thank you for your response, let me also say, that we are both on the same train, it's just that we have a different way of saying, "Halellujah!" :smilewinkgrin:

I appreciate the welcome. I can already tell that there is a lot of polarization on this board, personalities conflict, and people (including me) view everything from their own paradigm.

I'm sure we'll agree and disagree many times. Everyone's convinced of their position, and sometimes expressing it will rub someone the wrong way.

I agree that we are on the same train. Thanks again, brother

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

You mentioned the Nicodemus account. Jesus said;

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
In other words do not get all spiritual or caught up over the new birth.

You're putting words in Jesus' mouth with that post, and that is in reality the most dangerous thing you could possibly do. By our first birth we were corrupt, born in sin. Therefore we must be made new creatures, or else we cannot worship, serve and come into the presence of a loving and perfect God. We must be given a new nature, we must adopt new principles, we must express new affections, and we must practice and plan for new aims in our lives.

No stronger expression than "You must be born again" could have been chosen to signify such a great and remarkable change of state and character. We must be entirely different from what we were before, what we are after we meet Him cannot be the same as we were before. This new birth is from heaven, and its tendency is toward heaven. If you cannot point to at least a general time when you experienced such a change, when you knew that you were not the same as you were before, you likely have not been changed, and the reason you have not been changed is because you have not believed with the heart and the spirit, but only with the mind and the emotion -- and from your expressions of yourself up to now, I'd say it is all intellect, if indeed your claim is valid that ...

I cannot put an exact date as in a day on my salvation. It does not even interest me. I do not look back for some experience or date. My experience is the present based on scripture.

What I see here, and I admit I could easily be mistaken -- it is difficult to see the thought behind the printed word, particularly online -- is nothing but intellectual assent. There is no spirit-change, no heart-change, in your words.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

To paraphrase Inego Montoya, "You keep using that phrase, but I do not think it means what yout hink it means," particularly in light of this ...

There is no experience that comes with the new birth. There is evidence that comes because of it, but no experience. Repentance and faith do not require a physical action. Both are done in spirit. I realize that most churches today lean on experience as in coming forward, praying a prayer, and so forth, but it is not required for salvation which is given at the new birth with no particular experience in regards to the OP question.

This is a gross misunderstanding of the conversion experience. Perhaps you are mistaking "pew jumping" and the whooping and hollering some of our Pentecostal brethren do nearly every Sunday, to "show how much Spirit I've got," but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about knowing that you know that you know, and I'm not sure you know -- but again, that's based on this brief reading of your thoughts, and I could easily be wrong. When I received Christ, I felt the Holy Spirit enter me! Now, that's a bold statement, but I didn't dance a jig or fall down fainting, laugh uproariously, jump a desk, a pew, or a tall building. But I knew He entered in, and I knew I was different than I had been one minute earlier. I'm not saying everyone has that experience.

As I said, some can't point to a specific time, an hour, a day, even a week or a month that they believed. But again, if one doesn't know they are different, I'm not convinced they've had the experience of salvation.

You mentioned Paul and Peter. Paul never points to the new birth when telling the story. His salvation could have happend after that while he was waiting on Ananias to speak to him. Neither does Peter claim an experience at salvation.

I have to beg your pardon here, but he tells the story of his conversion three times, at least that we know of from the record of his ministry as reported by Luke. He never loses the marvel he felt at the experience, and for someone to claim that he "never points to new birth," in his story is to completely misunderstand his story.

There is no experience associated with the new birth.

That is simply a misstatement that likely comes from misunderstanding of what it is. I would plead with you to examine yourself. I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't make any difference what anyone else thinks they see or don't see in you. It's what you feel, and know to be the truth, and if you can't point to knowledge of an experience of change within , you don't have it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It was what I call the "voodoo of you do" - If you do this, and you do that.

In Latin its called "Quid Pro Quo"