Does a Person Have to Have a Born-Again Experience?

[Van]

As you can see, the Greek word translated "adoption" used five times by Paul alone, is seen in two entirely different lights. The side I am on, says the Greek word refers to receiving the full rights as a child of God, i.e. the "full benefits as son" at Christ's second coming. The other side claims the word refers to our becoming sons.

Lets insert these translations (becoming sons versus full benefits as sons) into each text and see which view seems most correct. Lets use the NASB translation.

Romans 8:15 "For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of [full benefits as sons] by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”"

Romans 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of [becoming sons] by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

Either view could be Paul's intended message.

Romans 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our [full benefits as sons,] the redemption of our body.

23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our [becoming sons,] the redemption of our body.

Clearly, the only view that works is "full benefits as sons" unless you want to argue you can have the Spirit and yet not be a child of God.

Galatians 4:5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the [full benefits as sons.]

Galatians 4:5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the [becoming sons.]

Again unless you want to argue you can be redeemed from under the Law without becoming children of God, then receiving future full benefits as sons works best.

Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to [full benefits as sons] through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to [becoming sons] through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Here, if evaluated in isolation, i.e. disregard the other verses, either could view could work.

So at the end of the evaluation we have two verses (Romans 8:15 and Ephesians 1:5) where "becoming sons" might be correct, but "full benefits as sons" also works equally well, and we have two verses where only "full benefits as sons" works at all.

 

[Iconoclast]

think the correct answer here is that the bible does not support your views, but since you assume that they are, you always say we are always wrong!

:laugh::laugh::laugh::thumbs:

 

[righteousdude2]

Van ... there you go again?!

One of us is certainly stretching scripture to our way of seeing things, because we do not see the same thing.

Bottom line, with no stretching of scripture.

:wavey:.....:smilewinkgrin:....​

 

[Van]

Calvinism has once again been shown to be a mistaken view of scripture, requiring scripture to be stretched to say the opposite of what it says. And once again, a Calvinist has ignored the evidence and lobbed a disparagement charging me with their behavior.

Post 161 presents evidence that the Calvinist claim for the meaning of adoption as used by Paul is mistaken.

 

[Yeshua1]

Calvinism has once again been shown to be a mistaken view of scripture, requiring scripture to be stretched to say the opposite of what it says. And once again, a Calvinist has ignored the evidence and lobbed a disparagement charging me with their behavior.

Post 161 presents evidence that the Calvinist claim for the meaning of adoption as used by Paul is mistaken.

well, one of those 'calvinists" who deny your understanding of us not being adopted right now by God, but waiting until resurrection is DHK, and when did he become a calvinist then?

 

[percho]

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law. 1 John 4:9 Gal 4:4 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.” Matt 1:20,21 And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child,fn His name was called JESUS, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb. Luke 2:21

Jesus the only man child conceived of God within woman. Only begotten.

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, 1 John 3:2 NKJV How for we have not been conceived and born of women as children?
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Romans 8:15,16 KJV

Heirs, conceived by Spirit of adoption (sonship) awaiting the manifestation as
sons (huios) of God Rom 8:9, called in verse 23 the adoption, magnified as being the redemption of the body, a body born different than it had been.

What will then be revealed, after the manifestation?

but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2 Like who? Jesus, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead. from Col 1:18 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, (we shall be like him, when he appears) that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

At that time the once flesh and blood beings who had died in Christ and those flesh and blood beings alive in Christ will no longer be former or presently flesh and blood beings but will be born again as flesh and bone, incorruptible spiritual beings.

The redemption of the purchased possession is to be born again incorruptible, unable to die anymore.

IMHO and I may stand alone.

 

[Van]

No comments on post 161 I see. Yet again, the Calvinists have fled from any actual discussion of their mistaken views.

Adoption, as used by Paul, refers to being given the full benefits of being children of God, and we become children of God by being born anew. As spiritual children of God, at Christ's second coming, our bodies will be redeemed and in the twinkling of an eye, we will become physical children of God, with a resurrected body. Pretty sure DHK agrees with that and accepts Romans 8:23.

 

[Yeshua1]

No comments on post 161 I see. Yet again, the Calvinists have fled from any actual discussion of their mistaken views.

Adoption, as used by Paul, refers to being given the full benefits of being children of God, and we become children of God by being born anew. As spiritual children of God, at Christ's second coming, our bodies will be redeemed and in the twinkling of an eye, we will become physical children of God, with a resurrected body. Pretty sure DHK agrees with that and accepts Romans 8:23.

Well, the posting by DHK quoted scriptures from same paul making very clear that we are right now received Spirit of adoption, so either its we are adopted, but still awaiting the fullness of that ar glorification, or else paul forgot what he wrote, and got confused, needing you to straighten him out!

 

[Van]

Yes we have received the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of Adoption, the Spirit of Christ, but having been sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit is not at issue. And you know it. Having the Spirit of Adoption refers to the Holy Spirit being given as a pledge to our future adoption, the redemption of our bodies, Romans 8:23.

Calvinism simply redefines words to alter scripture to pour the man-made doctrine into the text. That dog will not hunt.

Scripture does not say we are eagerly awaiting our past adoption, that view is nonsense.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes we have received the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of Adoption, the Spirit of Christ, but having been sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit is not at issue. And you know it. Having the Spirit of Adoption refers to the Holy Spirit being given as a pledge to our future adoption, the redemption of our bodies, Romans 8:23.

Calvinism simply redefines words to alter scripture to pour the man-made doctrine into the text. That dog will not hunt.

Scripture does not say we are eagerly awaiting our past adoption, that view is nonsense.

we jave been, are in process of, and will finally be fully sauntified when glorified, in same sense that we are noved receive the firstfruits ofour salvation, but will receive ALL that adoption bring us, the full saunctification into image of chrsit when glorified!

 

[DHK]

No comments on post 161 I see. Yet again, the Calvinists have fled from any actual discussion of their mistaken views.

Adoption, as used by Paul, refers to being given the full benefits of being children of God, and we become children of God by being born anew. As spiritual children of God, at Christ's second coming, our bodies will be redeemed and in the twinkling of an eye, we will become physical children of God, with a resurrected body. Pretty sure DHK agrees with that and accepts Romans 8:23.

There are two aspects to adoption.
We were adopted into his family at the time of salvation and given all the rights and privileges at that time as a child of God, an heir of God, a joint heir of Jesus Christ. I am a child of God at present. I have been since the day I was born again. I was adopted into his family. Previous to that time I was a child of Satan (John 8:44).

The other aspect of adoption is the redemption of our bodies which we still wait for. At the resurrection we will receive our glorified bodies. Then our adoption will be complete. There is a spiritual adoption and a physical adoption. There is a spiritual redemption (at the cross) and a physical redemption (at the resurrection).

 

[Yeshua1]

There are two aspects to adoption.
We were adopted into his family at the time of salvation and given all the rights and privileges at that time as a child of God, an heir of God, a joint heir of Jesus Christ. I am a child of God at present. I have been since the day I was born again. I was adopted into his family. Previous to that time I was a child of Satan (John 8:44).

The other aspect of adoption is the redemption of our bodies which we still wait for. At the resurrection we will receive our glorified bodies. Then our adoption will be complete. There is a spiritual adoption and a physical adoption. There is a spiritual redemption (at the cross) and a physical redemption (at the resurrection).

we aree right now adopted as children of God, but it doth not appear what we shall become and be when glorified, as the entire creation irself awaits that day!

 

[percho]

There are two aspects to adoption.
We were adopted into his family at the time of salvation and given all the rights and privileges at that time as a child of God, an heir of God, a joint heir of Jesus Christ. I am a child of God at present. I have been since the day I was born again. I was adopted into his family. Previous to that time I was a child of Satan (John 8:44).

The other aspect of adoption is the redemption of our bodies which we still wait for. At the resurrection we will receive our glorified bodies. Then our adoption will be complete. There is a spiritual adoption and a physical adoption. There is a spiritual redemption (at the cross) and a physical redemption (at the resurrection).

What is adopted at the spiritual adoption and what is adopted at the physical adoption, you spoke of above?

I ask because I think Yeshua1 correctly states following your post: "we are right now adopted as children of God, but it doth not appear what we shall be"

What is adopted, we the living souls; Bodies with the spirit of the breath of life from God have been given the Spirit of adoption, the Holy Spirit of promise. Promise of what?

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body fn and in your spirit, which are God’s. 1 Cor 6:19,20 Or as Eph 1:14 until the redemption of the purchased possession,

Isn't it the body that is being adopted by the spirit of adoption for incorruptible life?

Compare that to 1 Cor 15:44 There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Is it not the natural body that receives the Spirit of Adoption unto the spiritual body? Doesn't that say the same thing as the other two?

Was Jesus born of Mary with a natural body and afterwards of resurrection have a spiritual body? Consider. Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. and Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Compared to 1 Cor 15:45,46 The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Is that not speaking of Jesus of whom the living soul Adam was the figure thereof, the only one to date so resurrected from the dead, having been given the sure mercies of David? Said to be in Col. 1:18 firstborn from the dead.

 

[Van]

There are two aspects to adoption.
We were adopted into his family at the time of salvation and given all the rights and privileges at that time as a child of God, an heir of God, a joint heir of Jesus Christ. I am a child of God at present. I have been since the day I was born again. I was adopted into his family. Previous to that time I was a child of Satan (John 8:44).

The other aspect of adoption is the redemption of our bodies which we still wait for. At the resurrection we will receive our glorified bodies. Then our adoption will be complete. There is a spiritual adoption and a physical adoption. There is a spiritual redemption (at the cross) and a physical redemption (at the resurrection).

1) No scripture says or suggests "adoption" has two aspects, being born anew and our physical redemption. We become children of God not through adoption, but through being born anew.

2) Your reference (John 8:44) is non-germane, the issue is not that we were once child of the flesh, the issue is claiming we became children of God by adoption rather than by being born anew.

3) From Vines, "God does not "adopt" believers as children; they are begotten as such by His Holy Spirit through faith. "Adoption" is a term involving the dignity of the relationship of believers as sons; it is not a putting into the family by spiritual birth, but a putting into the position of sons. In Rom 8:23 the "adoption" of the believer is set forth as still future, as it there includes the redemption of the body, when the living will be changed and those who have fallen asleep will be raised. "

4) Galatians 3:26-27, For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized [spiritually]into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:17, Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, the old things passed away, behold, new things have come.

 

[Yeshua1]

1) No scripture says or suggests "adoption" has two aspects, being born anew and our physical redemption. We become children of God not through adoption, but through being born anew.

2) Your reference (John 8:44) is non-germane, the issue is not that we were once child of the flesh, the issue is claiming we became children of God by adoption rather than by being born anew.

3) From Vines, "God does not "adopt" believers as children; they are begotten as such by His Holy Spirit through faith. "Adoption" is a term involving the dignity of the relationship of believers as sons; it is not a putting into the family by spiritual birth, but a putting into the position of sons. In Rom 8:23 the "adoption" of the believer is set forth as still future, as it there includes the redemption of the body, when the living will be changed and those who have fallen asleep will be raised. "

4) Galatians 3:26-27, For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized [spiritually]into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:17, Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, the old things passed away, behold, new things have come.

When god saves us, when we are borm anew, then we are adopted and placed into Family of God, as if awaiting second coming, none of us yet children of God!

 

[Van]

I have presented several Lexicon's, and several scriptures, which clearly refute your mistaken view. We become children of God when God places us in Christ. We are born anew, not adopted. You are simply redefining words (adoption and born anew) to mean something other than what they mean.

Let me restate, anyone, anyone, anyone who is in Christ, who is in Christ who is in Christ, he is a new creation. Not an adopted child, but a born anew child.

 

[Yeshua1]

I have presented several Lexicon's, and several scriptures, which clearly refute your mistaken view. We become children of God when God places us in Christ. We are born anew, not adopted. You are simply redefining words (adoption and born anew) to mean something other than what they mean.

Let me restate, anyone, anyone, anyone who is in Christ, who is in Christ who is in Christ, he is a new creation. Not an adopted child, but a born anew child.

To be his child, one must be placed into Hisspiritual family, and paul called that adoption, as he coined it based upon the customs of Roman adoption, as the child adopted would be an heir at that moment ,but didi not come into the fullness of rights of adoption until age of adulthood!

 

[DHK]

I have presented several Lexicon's, and several scriptures, which clearly refute your mistaken view. We become children of God when God places us in Christ. We are born anew, not adopted. You are simply redefining words (adoption and born anew) to mean something other than what they mean.

Let me restate, anyone, anyone, anyone who is in Christ, who is in Christ who is in Christ, he is a new creation. Not an adopted child, but a born anew child.

A lexicon can only give you the literal meaning of a word, like a dictionary does. For example, if you look up "church" in the dictionary it may give you "denomination" as in Roman Catholic Church, a definition nowhere found in the Bible.
Meanings of words are found in the contexts in which they are used.

Go again to Romans 8:
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
--Verse 14 speaks both of sonship, which begins at salvation, and relationship, which continues throughout one's spiritual journey as a child of God. We have that relationship because we are the "sons of God."

In verse 15, "the spirit of bondage" is pitted against (or contrasted to) the "Spirit of bondage." An unsaved person is a servant to the law and in bondage to the law. When he is born again he is freed from the law and of servitude to it. Out of bondage he comes, as a slave to it, and is put into the household of God.
Paul said:
Romans 1:1 Paul, bondman of Jesus Christ, [a] called apostle, separated to God's glad tidings, (Darby)
He was a bondman, a slave, to Christ, but not under the law.
Thus he is now in God's household as a slave.
As a slave the relationship is different. It is different in two ways:
One, it is in a spirit of adoption. A slave is adopted not born.
Second, it is in a spirit of love. The love is so intense that he calls his Father, "Abba," the most endearing term a child has for his parent.

There are three aspects of sonship; or three ways in which it is used:
Here in verse 15, it refers to the reality of sonship which we are very conscious of. We know that we are sons of God. We have a daily relationship with him. We have been adopted into his family. We are his servants, to do as he commands.

In verse 23 it looks forward to the time when the body will be redeemed or glorified.

In Romans 9:4
Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
--Here it looks back to the time when God designated Israel as his sons.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Here the word "adoption" means "son-placing," that which God did when we were born into his family--regenerated/saved. We were given all the rights and privileges of son-ship. Every person that is born into the family of God is also a "son," and has all the privileges given to such a one--special privileges.

Thus there are three aspects to sonship, only one of which is future.
BTW, this topic has nothing to do with Calvinism.

 

[Yeshua1]

A lexicon can only give you the literal meaning of a word, like a dictionary does. For example, if you look up "church" in the dictionary it may give you "denomination" as in Roman Catholic Church, a definition nowhere found in the Bible.
Meanings of words are found in the contexts in which they are used.

Go again to Romans 8:
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
--Verse 14 speaks both of sonship, which begins at salvation, and relationship, which continues throughout one's spiritual journey as a child of God. We have that relationship because we are the "sons of God."

In verse 15, "the spirit of bondage" is pitted against (or contrasted to) the "Spirit of bondage." An unsaved person is a servant to the law and in bondage to the law. When he is born again he is freed from the law and of servitude to it. Out of bondage he comes, as a slave to it, and is put into the household of God.
Paul said:
Romans 1:1 Paul, bondman of Jesus Christ, [a] called apostle, separated to God's glad tidings, (Darby)
He was a bondman, a slave, to Christ, but not under the law.
Thus he is now in God's household as a slave.
As a slave the relationship is different. It is different in two ways:
One, it is in a spirit of adoption. A slave is adopted not born.
Second, it is in a spirit of love. The love is so intense that he calls his Father, "Abba," the most endearing term a child has for his parent.

There are three aspects of sonship; or three ways in which it is used:
Here in verse 15, it refers to the reality of sonship which we are very conscious of. We know that we are sons of God. We have a daily relationship with him. We have been adopted into his family. We are his servants, to do as he commands.

In verse 23 it looks forward to the time when the body will be redeemed or glorified.

In Romans 9:4
Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
--Here it looks back to the time when God designated Israel as his sons.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Here the word "adoption" means "son-placing," that which God did when we were born into his family--regenerated/saved. We were given all the rights and privileges of son-ship. Every person that is born into the family of God is also a "son," and has all the privileges given to such a one--special privileges.

Thus there are three aspects to sonship, only one of which is future.
BTW, this topic has nothing to do with Calvinism.

Somehow though Van always gets it made into being about calvinism!

Good point made here, as the greek lexicons do give what the word meant, but MUST also place that intot he context of where it was used in order to get the intent of its use by writer!