Does a Person Have to Have a Born-Again Experience?

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

All Christians have been adopted already.

Find me one verse -- just one! -- that speaks of adoption as anything other than a future event. Just one. I'll be waiting.

Van is right in stating it as he does here, that adoption is something to which we are "predestined" -- signed sealed and delivered via the downpayment of the Holy Spirit. But it is an event as yet unrealized, though it is guaranteed to occur for all believers.

 

[Iconoclast]

Find me one verse -- just one! -- that speaks of adoption as anything other than a future event. Just one. I'll be waiting.

Van is right in stating it as he does here, that adoption is something to which we are "predestined" -- signed sealed and delivered via the downpayment of the Holy Spirit. But it is an event as yet unrealized, though it is guaranteed to occur for all believers.

see posts 138, 139....read slowly

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

see posts 138, 139....read slowly

No, sorry, those don't work. In post 138, a statement is made and Scripture is quoted, but there is no effort to connect the Scripture to the statement, for good reason. The Scripture does not support the statement. In post 139, again there is no Scripture quoted that is related to any of the statements surrounding it. I have to admit, it is an excellent effort to make it appear as though you have posted a valid argument, but upon close examination, none of the verses quoted can be said to support the accompanying commentary. Epic fail.

 

[InTheLight]

No, sorry, those don't work. In post 138, a statement is made and Scripture is quoted, but there is no effort to connect the Scripture to the statement, for good reason. The Scripture does not support the statement. In post 139, again there is no Scripture quoted that is related to any of the statements surrounding it. I have to admit, it is an excellent effort to make it appear as though you have posted a valid argument, but upon close examination, none of the verses quoted can be said to support the accompanying commentary. Epic fail.

That's Icon's M.O. Throw out vast amounts of Scripture against the wall and hope something sticks. Usually it doesn't address the topic being discussed.

 

[percho]

This probably breaks some rule, however here is a re=post of my post 119.

And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body; Romans 8:23 YLT

in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation -- in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:13,14 YLT

Those verses have a lot say about the same thing.

Just what is the acquired possession which requires redemption at a specific moment called adoption that is sonship and or son placing or as W&H translates, to-a-son-placing-unto?

Have ye not known that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own, 1 Cor 6:19 YLT
and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you. Romans 8:11 YLT

When? the redemption of the acquired possession,?

BY the eternal word of God is it not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that conceives the body as a son of God awaiting being born again at the redemption of the acquired possession?

Is it not the body of flesh, born of woman that must be born again, by the Spirit, indwelling us, in order to be inheritors?


Relative to the other scriptures quoted is the answer to the last 2 questions. Yes.

Therefore the firstfruit of the spirit of adoption conceives the body wherein it dwells until the appearing of our Lord from heaven who shall then give birth, that is change our vile body like unto his glorious body. That which was born of the flesh then at that time will become born of the Spirit. The adoption, the redemption of the body.

Of course I understand what that does to, "born again," however lets be true to what the word says.

The resurrection is spoken of as birth in both the old and new testaments.
Isa 26 Isa 66 Rom 1:4 Col 1:18 John 16:19-21

 

[DHK]

Pertaining to the new birth:
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
--We have already been adopted, born into the family of God, His children, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. All of this is our adoption. It is now--spiritually.

Pertaining to the resurrection:
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
--All creation waits for the coming of Christ; the resurrection; the redemption of our bodies; the adoption which pertains to our glorified bodies.

 

[percho]

Pertaining to the new birth:
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
--We have already been adopted, born into the family of God, His children, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. All of this is our adoption. It is now--spiritually.

Pertaining to the resurrection:
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
--All creation waits for the coming of Christ; the resurrection; the redemption of our bodies; the adoption which pertains to our glorified bodies.

Just for the record.

For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. Romans 8:19 NKJV When will be the revealing of the sons of God? At the resurrection? Luke 20:36 NKJV “nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:20-23 NKJV

When and why did the God subject the creation to futility, in hope? What hope?

What was Satan doing hanging around in the Garden of Eden?

Once again I will ask for any to answer.

Romans 8:29 NKJV For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

At the revealing of the sons of God, that is when they are conformed to the image of the Son of God, Jesus and he will then be the firstborn of many, sons, will those sons be equal in creation or greater in creation than was the first man Adam?

You do understand that if they will be greater than, which they will be, then Adam the day he was created needed to be born again.

 

[righteousdude2]

Okay ... you asked, and

Find me one verse -- just one! -- that speaks of adoption as anything other than a future event. Just one. I'll be waiting.

Van is right in stating it as he does here, that adoption is something to which we are "predestined" -- signed sealed and delivered via the downpayment of the Holy Spirit. But it is an event as yet unrealized, though it is guaranteed to occur for all believers.

... here it is, not only in a futuristic sense, but a present tense fact that we are in fact HIs children; the sons and daughters of God by way of being adopted into the family when we recieved the Grace of God through the gift of salvation!

You are merely trying to play a game of semantics, and well, it just isn't going to fly! If you don't want to accept the fact that when you were born again, you becamse a legal heir to the Kingdom by way of adoption, then that is certainly your choice. It won't change a thing, and it certainly won't keep you from heaven. It will only keep you from being able to proclaim, that as a child of God, you are legally granted the promises that He has given to all who call Jesus, LORD! :thumbs:

Romans 8:15 (ESV) - "For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, 'Abba! Father!'”

Ephesians 1:5 (ESV) - "He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will ..."

Galatians 4:5 (ESV) - "To redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons."

Galatians 3:29 (ESV) - "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise." Please note that since we are not actual children of God by blood, this must mean we are made "heirs" by way of leagl adoption! The same can be said with this verse, and many others, Galatians 3:29 (ESV) - And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

And in case you don't like the ESV version of Eph. 1:5, here are numerous other versions of the same verse using ADOPTED in its vernacular to describe the legal transaction between sinful man and a Holy God, where sinful mand is redeemed, and made heirs to the Kingdom through the blood sacrifice of Jesus! I'd have to say that according to the legalese of Grace, we have been adopted in the family of God!
ENJOY:

(NIV) - "He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--"

(NLT) - "God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure."

(NASB) - "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will ..."

(KJV) - "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will ..."

(ISV) - "He predestined us for adoption to himself through Jesus the Messiah, according to the pleasure of his will ..."

Oh, and then then there are the following verses which all elude to the legal case of us being adopted into the family of God! SEE:http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Adoption/

 

[righteousdude2]

He is well known for this ...`

That's Icon's M.O. Throw out vast amounts of Scripture against the wall and hope something sticks. Usually it doesn't address the topic being discussed.

.... after all, he has a lot of alone time on the road, and finding tons of scripture to throw at a problem is easy for him, and like you said, sometimes it sticks! If you throw enough water on a fire, some of it will hit its mark! Shoot enough bullets at a moving target and eventually some of them hit the intended target, and who knows, sometimes the target goes down in flames, and at least the shooter can say, I hit it. I hit some part of it. so take that :laugh:

 

[Van]

Romans 8:15 (ESV) - "For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, 'Abba! Father!'”

Ephesians 1:5 (ESV) - "He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will ..."

Galatians 4:5 (ESV) - "To redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons."

Galatians 3:29 (ESV) - "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

These verses provide no support for the idea we have been adopted.

1) The Spirit of Adoption refers to the fact the Holy Spirit is given as a pledge to our future adoption. Note we are not adopted to become sons, as if being brought into God's family, but adopted as sons, referring to being granted rights as a natural born child at maturity. (Romans 8:15)

2) Yet again as spiritually born children of God, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, thus predestined to adoption, the redemption of our bodies at Christ's second coming. (Ephesians 1:5)

3) Yet again, we were redeemed when God put us spiritually in Christ, where we were born anew, a spiritual child of God, set free from the penalty of sin under the Law, so that those redeemed would receive adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. (Galatians 4:5)

4) Galatians 3:29 refers to belonging to Christ, i.e. a born anew creation in Christ sealed in Christ with the Spirit of Christ. Thus as a child of God we are heirs to the promise given Abraham. We are grafted in. Our predestined adoption, the resurrection of our bodies, is no where in view in this verse.

5) Strange RD, you omitted to quote Romans 8:23 which defines adoption as our bodily redemption, not our spiritual birth, making us alive together with Christ.

The effort of Calvinists to blur the line between adoption and being born anew goes on unabated, but it is an obviously mistaken view with no actual support, adoption refers to our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming, not our spiritual birth as children of God.

 

[percho]

These verses provide no support for the idea we have been adopted.

1) The Spirit of Adoption refers to the fact the Holy Spirit is given as a pledge to our future adoption. Note we are not adopted to become sons, as if being brought into God's family, but adopted as sons, referring to being granted rights as a natural born child at maturity. (Romans 8:15)

2) Yet again as spiritually born children of God, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, thus predestined to adoption, the redemption of our bodies at Christ's second coming. (Ephesians 1:5)

3) Yet again, we were redeemed when God put us spiritually in Christ, where we were born anew, a spiritual child of God, set free from the penalty of sin under the Law, so that those redeemed would receive adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. (Galatians 4:5)

4) Galatians 3:29 refers to belonging to Christ, i.e. a born anew creation in Christ sealed in Christ with the Spirit of Christ. Thus as a child of God we are heirs to the promise given Abraham. We are grafted in. Our predestined adoption, the resurrection of our bodies, is no where in view in this verse.

5) Strange RD, you omitted to quote Romans 8:23 which defines adoption as our bodily redemption, not our spiritual birth, making us alive together with Christ.

The effort of Calvinists to blur the line between adoption and being born anew goes on unabated, but it is an obviously mistaken view with no actual support, adoption refers to our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming, not our spiritual birth as children of God.

Van, would you agree with me that we have received the Holy Spirit of the promise as the which is the earnest, the begetal seed, for the redemption of the acquired possession?


and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you. Romans 8:11

The redemption of the acquired possession being at the same moment as, quicken also your dying bodies. The same moment as this? In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ---Does that take place by the Spirit of God that dwells and or did dwell in our body, it's temple?

A friend of my daughter just lost a baby at 17 weeks gestation. A boy. They lost a son, who died before birth.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 3:3

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7

 

[Yeshua1]

Pertaining to the new birth:
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
--We have already been adopted, born into the family of God, His children, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. All of this is our adoption. It is now--spiritually.

Pertaining to the resurrection:
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
--All creation waits for the coming of Christ; the resurrection; the redemption of our bodies; the adoption which pertains to our glorified bodies.

which fits into how NLT chose to translate the quoted passage, as that we NOW have receive adoption as children of God, but we will have the final aspect of full adoption when we get glorifed in the resurrection!

 

[Yeshua1]

Find me one verse -- just one! -- that speaks of adoption as anything other than a future event. Just one. I'll be waiting.

Van is right in stating it as he does here, that adoption is something to which we are "predestined" -- signed sealed and delivered via the downpayment of the Holy Spirit. But it is an event as yet unrealized, though it is guaranteed to occur for all believers.

It is as you stated, a 'done deal" on mind of God, but we await to experience it ourselves in resurrection...

Would though see it as being the final aspect of being already adopted, as we will have the fullness and all that adoption entitled us to in the resurrection, but NOT being adopted then!

 

[Van]

Van, would you agree with me that we have received the Holy Spirit of the promise as the which is the earnest, the begetal seed, for the redemption of the acquired possession?


and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you. Romans 8:11

The redemption of the acquired possession being at the same moment as, quicken also your dying bodies. The same moment as this? In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ---Does that take place by the Spirit of God that dwells and or did dwell in our body, it's temple?

A friend of my daughter just lost a baby at 17 weeks gestation. A boy. They lost a son, who died before birth.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 3:3

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7

Thanks for completely agreeing with me in every detail!

No one has been adopted, Christ has not come a second time.
We have not been adopted, we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies.
We were made alive, quickened, regenerated when God placed us in Christ, Ephesians 2:5
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of Promise who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's possession, to the praise of His glory.
Put your thinking cap on Percho, if we have a pledge to an inheritance, we have the pledge, not the inheritance. This is not rocket science. We are born anew, quickened, regenerated, but we have not been adopted - resurrected in our glorified bodies, that occurs when Christ comes again.

 

[Van]

Calvinists love to rewrite scripture, just take a close look at the NLT. Rather than eagerly awaiting our adoption, Yeshua1 posts we are eagerly awaiting "the final aspect of already being adopted." So once again, to support Calvinism, an acolyte must try to say scripture says the exact opposite of what it actually says in plain English.

 

[Yeshua1]

Calvinists love to rewrite scripture, just take a close look at the NLT. Rather than eagerly awaiting our adoption, Yeshua1 posts we are eagerly awaiting "the final aspect of already being adopted." So once again, to support Calvinism, an acolyte must try to say scripture says the exact opposite of what it actually says in plain English.

think the correct answer here is that the bible does not support your views, but since you assume that they are, you always say we are always wrong!

 

[Van]

I did not rewrite the text of Romans 8:23 to include "the final aspect of already being adopted." You did. My NASB, you know the one you claim to like, reads "waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

The problem is Calvinism is wrong as far as the TULI go, and whenever you claim otherwise, you are wrong. Not my fault. I just stick with scripture as written. Adoption refers to our bodily redemption.

 

[righteousdude2]

Strange RD, you omitted to quote Romans 8:23 which defines adoption as our bodily redemption, not our spiritual birth, making us alive together with Christ.

Even stranger, if you had read the link I attached, you would have found that Scripture.

And to answer your rebuttal ... you are playing on the jungle gym bars of Scripture and semantics ... like I said, you are picking and chosing and stretching the scritpure to your way of seeing things. This is your God given right, but I would like to say that, if you don't want to claim the security of knowing you have sonship, via inheritance by way of the legal act of adoption through the blood of Jesus,that is entirely up to you! As for me and my house, I stand on the verses I provided, proving without doubt that we are children of God by way of legal adoption.

You and I are Gentiles...we are not even of the blood lines of HIs chosen. It took a thoroughly legal act to buy back our lifes and make us His children! That can only be seen as adoption! And it isn't something that will one day be, but something that is the moment we accept, excuse me, recieve Jesus into our life. We are saved from sin, and adopted by the blood of Jesus back in the family of God!

 

[Iconoclast]

No, sorry, those don't work. In post 138, a statement is made and Scripture is quoted, but there is no effort to connect the Scripture to the statement, for good reason. The Scripture does not support the statement. In post 139, again there is no Scripture quoted that is related to any of the statements surrounding it. I have to admit, it is an excellent effort to make it appear as though you have posted a valid argument, but upon close examination, none of the verses quoted can be said to support the accompanying commentary. Epic fail.

And then this fromITL...

That's Icon's M.O. Throw out vast amounts of Scripture against the wall and hope something sticks. Usually it doesn't address the topic being discussed.

because neither of you can begin to grasp the verses offered which people have grasped all through church history...does not constitute{epic fail}, or {throwing verses against the wall}...

it just shows two people who do not get it:laugh: You then dismiss the fine verses and do not interact with them..because you flat out are unable to.That has nothing to do with me...but rather you two who accuse everyone, but back up nothing...

ITL...i had to call in a missing person report as you disappeared after the last interaction...studying hard..no doubt:laugh:

 

[Van]

Even stranger, if you had read the link I attached, you would have found that Scripture.

And to answer your rebuttal ... you are playing on the jungle gym bars of Scripture and semantics ... like I said, you are picking and chosing and stretching the scritpure to your way of seeing things. This is your God given right, but I would like to say that, if you don't want to claim the security of knowing you have sonship, via inheritance by way of the legal act of adoption through the blood of Jesus,that is entirely up to you! As for me and my house, I stand on the verses I provided, proving without doubt that we are children of God by way of legal adoption.

You and I are Gentiles...we are not even of the blood lines of His chosen. It took a thoroughly legal act to buy back our lifes and make us His children! That can only be seen as adoption! And it isn't something that will one day be, but something that is the moment we accept, excuse me, receive Jesus into our life. We are saved from sin, and adopted by the blood of Jesus back in the family of God!

One of us is certainly stretching scripture to our way of seeing things, because we do not see the same thing.

We were not adopted, because Paul used the term to refer to our being raised in glorified bodies or changed in the twinkling of an eye. Romans 8:23 proves this. If you deny it, then do not charge me with stretching scripture.

Lets take your view, your racist view, and consider the stumbling block of Christ. Are we under the Old Covenant or the New Covenant in His blood? Under the New Covenant!

Did we receive the Spirit through works of the Law or by hearing with faith? Therefore it is those who are of faith that are the sons of Abraham. What was the Promise, all the nations of the world will be blessed in you? No one is justified by the Law, but the righteous shall live by faith.

Jesus was crucified in order that in Christ Jesus the Blessings of Abraham might come to the Gentiles including RD and Van, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

But the Scripture has shut up everyone, including RD and Van, under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be "given" to those who believe. We become children of the promise through the free gift, and not through a legal transaction.

For we are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of us, including RD and Van, who were spiritually baptized into Christ have clothed ourselves with Christ Jesus.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female, for we are one in Christ Jesus. If we belong to Christ, we are heirs according to the promise.

Bottom line, with no stretching of scripture, Paul goes out of his way to debunk your legalism to become a child of the promise, rather than adoption, we received the free gift through faith, God baptized us into Christ, made us alive, and raised us up in Christ a new creation, born anew from above, not adopted, but born anew!!! Adoption- the redemption of our bodies - occurs when Christ comes again.