Does a Person Have to Have a Born-Again Experience?

[righteousdude2]

You are SPOT On!

Calvinism simply rewrites scripture after scripture to reverse what it says.

Every doctrine of man, written to support their views on talking points regarding Scripture is nothing more or nothing less than man, and woman, rewriting Scripture to convolute the truth of God/s word.

I personally have chosen to attend the salad bar of religion, picking out what I feel is best for my style of living for God! I think we are ALL guilty of the salad bar theology, in that we need certain things to make the direction we are headed in to make sense to us personally, and that is why there is the division among believers. We watch others visit certain parts of the theology salad bar that we don't personally like, and we ask them, how could you even consider choosing that when over here is the best-tasting stuff around?

Thus, I say "ACCEPT" while other say "RECIEVE" Christ, but in the end it all comes out in the wash as the person, including yourself, can rest on the fact that Jesus has saved you!

Personally, I love Calvin, Wesley, and many of the Pentecost of old! I like to think that in a strange way, I am a mixed breed; a mutt; however, I have no doubt in my heart that when it's all said and done, I will be given the k to my eternal condominium, and that is what we live this life for. To get through the narrow gate and to our just rewards!

If you folks think, God is going to give preferential treatment to one group or another, I think you have been drinking the kool aid of religion too long! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Yeshua1]

Roman 8:23 says we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

You can deny scripture till the cows come home, but that does not alter the plain truth. Calvinism simply rewrites scripture after scripture to reverse what it says. Red flags, folks, red flags.

the adoption as sons written there likks to receiving our glorified bodies, so we are adopted right now, called children of god, but not in earnest. not receing FULLNESS of our adoption, as THAT awaits seconc coming and resurrection!

And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children,[j] including the new bodies he has promised us.

Romans 8:23 NLT

not a big fan usually, but they translated this spot on!

 

[Van]

ROFLOL, good golly Miss Molly. The NLT adulterates the text to pour Calvinism in and you cite it as an example? Recall the thread about bad translations, you just cited one.

Adoption is split apart so it can be applied to salvation with no basis in theology or scripture. Please stop rewriting the text.

 

[Yeshua1]

ROFLOL, good golly Miss Molly. The NLT adulterates the text to pour Calvinism in and you cite it as an example? Recall the thread about bad translations, you just cited one.

Adoption is split apart so it can be applied to salvation with no basis in theology or scripture. Please stop rewriting the text.

we have been adopted by god when born again, so we have the full spiritual blessings in him now, but the redemption of our bodies back by God awaits second coming, and that will be the fullness of what it means to have been adopted!

Hebrews syayes that God has no 'bastard" kids, so how can we be called children of god, and in the family if not been adopted by him? that would make Hebrews saying a mistruth then, correct?

 

[Van]

Repeating falsehood does not make it true. We are eagerly awaiting out adoption, not the rest of our adoption, or the culmination of our adoption and so forth and so on. Rewriting the text is all Calvinism has to offer.

None of the naturally born children are "bastards," but they have not received the benefits of adoption, the redemption of their bodies. You have to keep your eye on the ball when dealing with Calvinism's defense, because they jump from one falsehood to another non-stop. Misrepresenting what you say, what scriptures say, what Calvinism says to create fog and shroud the truth. Red flags, folks, red flags.

 

[Yeshua1]

Repeating falsehood does not make it true. We are eagerly awaiting out adoption, not the rest of our adoption, or the culmination of our adoption and so forth and so on. Rewriting the text is all Calvinism has to offer.

None of the naturally born children are "bastards," but they have not received the benefits of adoption, the redemption of their bodies. You have to keep your eye on the ball when dealing with Calvinism's defense, because they jump from one falsehood to another non-stop. Misrepresenting what you say, what scriptures say, what Calvinism says to create fog and shroud the truth. Red flags, folks, red flags.

If we were not adopted by God, we would still be in kingdom of satan, lost, and not able to call Jesus Lord, or Father Abba!

 

[Van]

Just because you make stuff up, it remains an invention of man. Romans 8:23 says we are eagerly awaiting our adoption.

No need to change the word used to describe being transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son. No amount of rewriting that verse will insert adoption. When we are spiritually placed in Christ, we are made alive together with Christ. So even Calvinism accepts those regenerated in Christ are able to call Jesus Lord and cry out "Abba Father."

 

[Yeshua1]

Just because you make stuff up, it remains an invention of man. Romans 8:23 says we are eagerly awaiting our adoption.

No need to change the word used to describe being transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son. No amount of rewriting that verse will insert adoption. When we are spiritually placed in Christ, we are made alive together with Christ. So even Calvinism accepts those regenerated in Christ are able to call Jesus Lord and cry out "Abba Father."

ONLY those who have been saved and reborn can do that, and that would be the children of God, adopted into being co -hiers with Jesus!

 

[Van]

One falsehood after another, denying scripture after scripture. We are awaiting adoption, it will occur at Christ's second coming, Romans 8:23. No verse says or suggests those born anew have been adopted. Rather, those born anew are predestined to adoption at Christ's second coming.

 

[Yeshua1]

One falsehood after another, denying scripture after scripture. We are awaiting adoption, it will occur at Christ's second coming, Romans 8:23. No verse says or suggests those born anew have been adopted. Rather, those born anew are predestined to adoption at Christ's second coming.

How can we be calle dthe children of God right now if adoption still future event?

So NONE are adopted yet by God , as ALL might die now before Jesus returns?

 

[Van]

We are spiritual children of God because we have been born anew. When someone is born of God, they are children of God. This is not rocket science.

Now as spiritually born children of God, we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies at Christ's second coming.

And yes, as spiritual children of God, many, everyone so far, physically dies before his or her adoption, the redemption of our bodies. But those who died in Christ will be raised first, then those living will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, at Christ's second coming and we will meet Him in the air. Does any of that ring a bell?

 

[Yeshua1]

We are spiritual children of God because we have been born anew. When someone is born of God, they are children of God. This is not rocket science.

Now as spiritually born children of God, we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies at Christ's second coming.

And yes, as spiritual children of God, many, everyone so far, physically dies before his or her adoption, the redemption of our bodies. But those who died in Christ will be raised first, then those living will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, at Christ's second coming and we will meet Him in the air. Does any of that ring a bell?

we must be adopted by god to get to heave, so until the Rapture, none have made it there yet?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

One falsehood after another, denying scripture after scripture. We are awaiting adoption, it will occur at Christ's second coming, Romans 8:23. No verse says or suggests those born anew have been adopted. Rather, those born anew are predestined to adoption at Christ's second coming.

While true, the adoption is assured, sealed by the Holy Spirit, Who Paul states quite plainly is given as a down payment toward that day.

Ephesians 1, NASB
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. [Emphasis added]​

Clearly the adoption is secured.

 

[DHK]

we must be adopted by god to get to heave, so until the Rapture, none have made it there yet?

How do you know whether or not you have been adopted yet?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

How do you know whether or not you have been adopted yet?

By the Holy Spirit within us who testifies to that fact. :thumbsup:

 

[Van]

More claims of being redeemed when Christ came the second time? No one has been adopted as pledged and assured by being sealed with the Holy Spirit. Anyone who claims they know they have undergone our bodily redemption and met Christ in the air is a looney tune!

Look at scripture, what does the Holy Spirit testify to? John 15:26

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

More claims of being redeemed when Christ came the second time? No one has been adopted as pledged and assured by being sealed with the Holy Spirit. Anyone who claims they know they have undergone our bodily redemption and met Christ in the air is a looney tune!

No one has been adopted, but the adoption is sealed. It is guaranteed. It is as though it has happened, because it will happen. God has so promised. What is your problem with this?

 

[Iconoclast]

All Christians have been adopted already.

From A Baptist Catechism with commentary;

[QUOTE]Adoption is an act of God’s free grace, whereby the believer is
received into the number, and has a right to all the privileges
of the sons of God, including the reception of the Holy Spirit.
The full and final realization of adoption awaits the bodily
resurrection unto glory.
Jn. 1:12–13. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power
to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the
will of man, but of God.
Rom. 8:14–16. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are
the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage
again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we
cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit,
that we are the children of God.
Rom. 8:22–23. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and
travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves
also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan
within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our
body.
Gal. 4:4–7. 4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent
forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5To redeem
them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of
sons.6And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his
Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7Wherefore thou art no
more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through
Christ.
Eph. 1:3–6. 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in
Christ: 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in
love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus
Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the
praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in
the beloved.
1 Jn. 3:1–3. 1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed
upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world
knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2Beloved, now are we the
sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know
that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him
as he is. 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself,
even as he is pure.
See also: Rom. 8:17–23; Phil. 3:20–21; 1 Jn. 3:1–3.[/QUOTE]


And again;

The English term “adoption” derives from the Latin adoptio (from ad,
“to” and opto, “choose”). The term occurs five times in Scripture, all in the
New Testament, and all in the writings of Paul: Rom. 8:15, 23; 9:4; Gal. 4:5;
Eph. 1:5. The Gk. term is huiothesia, from huios, “son,” and thesis, “a
placing,” and literally means “to place as a son,” a process and ceremony
upon one’s majority, which referred to natural sons within the family as well
as to adopted sons from outside the family. One must take care not to read
into the Scriptures either the bare Latin etymology, the legal, or the modern
idea of adopting someone into the family as a child. The biblical terminology
and its use designate this, but also much more.
Adoption, then, is a distinct, forensic, separate and gracious act of God
which brings us into that filial relationship and intimacy as his beloved sons
and children. It is through adoption that we receive the Holy Spirit and the
status of sonship (Rom. 8:14–17; Gal. 4:4–7).
This forensic, gracious act of God—separate and distinct from
regeneration and justification—stands at the foundation of our filial
relationship to God as our Heavenly Father, and inclusively of our whole
Christian experience. It is in the context of our adoption that we must consider
our Father’s mercy and grace (Eph. 1:3–7; 2:18; 3:14–19), our relationship to
him as “Father” (Gal. 4:5–7), our prayers to and communion with him (Matt.
6:9, 14–15; Lk. 11:2), his loving kindness, chastening and providential care
(Rom. 8:14–17, 23, 28; Heb. 12:5–14), and that glorious presence, witness,
seal and earnest of the Holy Spirit, who makes our Christian experience a
reality, retains our glorious inheritance and preserves us unto his heavenly
kingdom (Rom. 5:5; 8:15–16; Gal. 4:4–7; Eph. 1:13–14; 4:30; 2 Tim. 4:18; 1
Pet. 1:4).


Adoption possesses a vital eschatological aspect. The New Testament
associates our final adoption [placing as a son] with our resurrection unto
glory. Our resurrected, glorified bodies will signal our full and final status as
the sons of God manifested before all creation (Rom. 8:17–23; Phil. 3:20–21;
1 Jn. 3:1–3). Do you have the Spirit of adoption? (Rom. 8:11–16).

 

[Iconoclast]

http://www.founders.org/library/boyce1/ch36.html

Here is JL Dagg

SECTION III.--ADOPTION.

GOD ADOPTS, AS SONS, ALL WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST.[98]

In adoption, as practised among men, an individual receives the son of another into his family, and confers on him the same privileges and advantages, as if he were his own son. In this sense, God adopts all who believe in Jesus Christ: "We are all the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ."[99] "Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed on us, that we should be called the sons of God."[100] This blessing of grace rises higher than justification. Though a judge may fully acquit one who is arraigned before him on a charge of crime, he does not confer, on the man so acquitted, any of the privileges or advantages which belong to a son. But the believer in Jesus is permitted to regard God, not only as a justifying Judge, but as a reconciled and affectionate Father. The problem, how he can be put among the children,[101] has been solved. Though once afar off, he has been brought nigh by the blood of Christ, and made of the household of God.[102]

Among the privileges and advantages which adoption secures, we may enumerate the following:

1. The love of God, as a kind Father, is secured to believers. The Scriptures frequently exhibit the love of God to his people, under the figure of a Father's love to his children: "As a Father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear him."[103] "If ye, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give good things to them that ask him."[104] "Your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things."[105] Corresponding with this encouraging and delightful exhibition of God's love, is the confidence with which the believer in Christ is inspired to approach his heavenly Father: "Because ye are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into yours hearts, crying Abba, Father."[106] Hence Christ habitually spoke to his disciples of God as their Father, and, before he left them, said, in language full of endearment and encouragement: "I ascend to my Father and your Father:"[107] and hence he taught them to say, in their daily prayers: "Our Father, who art in heaven."[108]

2. The discipline of God, as a kind and wise Father, is secured to all who believe in Jesus: "Whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth."[109] "We have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence. Shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of Spirits and live?"[110] "For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness."[111] Inestimably rich is this blessing of divine discipline. Let the wealthy and noble of the earth rejoice in the advantages which give them distinction among men, and supply them with the means of carnal enjoyment; but let the afflicted believer in Jesus, rejoice in the lot which God has assigned him, because it has been chosen for him by a Father who knows what is best for him, and who loves him so tenderly as to withhold from him no good thing. Having all good in heaven and earth at his disposal, he has selected that portion for each of his children on earth, which will best promote their highest interest.

3. Believers in Christ are made heirs of God: "If children, then heirs of God, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ."[112] God, the creator of all things, is the proprietor of all things, and his adopted children are made heirs to this vast estate. "He that overcometh, shall inherit all things."[113] "All things are yours, and Christ is appointed heir of all things; and believers are co-heirs with him."[114]

The inheritance of God's children, is frequently represented as a kingdom: "Fear not, little flock, it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom."[115] "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom."[116] The adoption of believers does not take full effect in the present life: "We are waiting for the adoption, the redemption of the body;' "waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God."[117] Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom; and, therefore, this vile body must be changed, and fashioned like the glorious body of Christ, before we can receive the glory and joy which God has prepared for us. Yet the title to the inheritance is made sure, since we are co-heirs with Christ; and the promise and oath of God, two immutable things in which it is impossible for God to lie,[118] give to the heirs of promise, the strongest possible assurance, that they shall receive the inheritance: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God; and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know, that when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is."[119] Though now in exile, and pilgrims and strangers in the earth, perhaps despised and forsaken, we are the children of God, and heirs of an inheritance which is incorruptible, undefiled, and fadeth not away. Even now, whatever may be our poverty, affliction, or reproach, we are the objects of our Father's care, and he gives us, as an earnest of the future inheritance, so much of it in present enjoyment, as he sees to be best for us. All things within the boundless dominion of Jehovah, work together for good, to them that love God.[120]

 

[Van]

No one has been adopted, but the adoption is sealed. It is guaranteed. It is as though it has happened, because it will happen. God has so promised. What is your problem with this?

Hi TND, I have absolutely no problem with this: No one has been adopted, but those born anew and sealed with the Holy Spirit have been predestined to adoption. Yeshua1 and Iconoclast are claiming adoption refers to being born anew. This is absolutely mistaken. The Calvinists are desperately trying to turn predestined to adoption at Christ's second coming into our initial salvation. Given Romans 8:23, it is a farce, but nonetheless posted over and over.