Does anything we do matter?

[quantumfaith]

once again with the wedge thing.

Historic Calvinism abandons this issue to the realm above the mental abilities of mortal man.

Yes, NOTHING happens that God did not purpose to happen. No real mainstream Calvinist would deny that. And that is all I have been saying from the start. I may be saying it much more bluntly and frankly than some would wish, but that the Westminster Confession and Calvin and Beza and Gill and Boice and Spurgeon and Pink and well nigh every reputable Calvinist on earth believes that is WITHOUT QUESTION.

At the same time man is free to choose to do whatever he wants to do at any given moment.

How all of that works together is just one of thousands of mysteries that are too great for us.

But that the Bible says they both happen is clear.

The Calvinist believes the Bible by faith on both issues.

The Arminian denies the sovereignty of God to preserve the freedom of man.

And now you have to go and make and inacurrate statement and be divisive.

 

[Luke2427]

Let me throw in this question regarding Acts 2:23



The ESV uses this phrase: the definite plan....
The NIV renders it as Gods deliberate plan
The NIV (1984) has it as God's set purpose
The NASB uses this description: predetermined plan

Are these translations speaking of determinism?
When this verse speaks of a plan, is it referring to the end result or does it include the details of the plan?

Since God is not the author of evil, can he use an evil deed (or over-ride its human purpose) to accomplish his intended result, which would be good? I'm thinking of Joseph. God described the brothers' intent to sell him into slavery as evil, but He meant it for good.

The ultimate example is the crucifixion, which Peter described in Acts 2:23 as having been done by "wicked hands." Yet it fit into God's eternal plan for the Son to be slain for sinners.

Further, David described the crucifixion in Psalm 22, written a thousand years earlier. He described a method of execution unheard of at the time. Could we say that God determined the means as well as the end?

I will admit that I can understand God's determining the date, place and method of the crucifixion, I concede that this was an evil deed by wicked hands, which Peter says clearly is part of God's "determinate counsel."

I also admit that I don't know how God's sovereignty and human will work together. Nor do I understand how God incorporates evil into his plan. But the scriptures say they do, and that's good enough for me.

exactly!!!!

We don't have to understand how it works- but we'd darn sure better not deny the exhaustive sovereignty of God and the invincibility of his eternal purposes due simply to our mortal ignorance.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Gods instructing me to eat a high fiber with flaxseed & no sugar....oh yes I put some blueberries in it & sprinkle it with kashi seeds....No grits though Dave....perhaps Mothers oats! :wavey:

In another life, fresh eggs & Bacon & sausage with rye toast & tons of butter & coffee......ah yes I can dream!

 

[quantumfaith]

Let me throw in this question regarding Acts 2:23



The ESV uses this phrase: the definite plan....
The NIV renders it as Gods deliberate plan
The NIV (1984) has it as God's set purpose
The NASB uses this description: predetermined plan

Are these translations speaking of determinism?
When this verse speaks of a plan, is it referring to the end result or does it include the details of the plan?

Since God is not the author of evil, can he use an evil deed (or over-ride its human purpose) to accomplish his intended result, which would be good? I'm thinking of Joseph. God described the brothers' intent to sell him into slavery as evil, but He meant it for good.

The ultimate example is the crucifixion, which Peter described in Acts 2:23 as having been done by "wicked hands." Yet it fit into God's eternal plan for the Son to be slain for sinners.

Further, David described the crucifixion in Psalm 22, written a thousand years earlier. He described a method of execution unheard of at the time. Could we say that God determined the means as well as the end?

I will admit that I can understand God's determining the date, place and method of the crucifixion, I concede that this was an evil deed by wicked hands, which Peter says clearly is part of God's "determinate counsel."

I also admit that I don't know how God's sovereignty and human will work together. Nor do I understand how God incorporates evil into his plan. But the scriptures say they do, and that's good enough for me.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

exactly!!!!

We don't have to understand how it works- but we'd darn sure better not deny the exhaustive sovereignty of God and the invincibility of his eternal purposes due simply to our mortal ignorance.

Everyone will agree with Gods Sovereignty & for us DoG Believers its crucial to honoring him. But you know what the unspoken fear is right. The fear is to wonder into fatalism where God forces you into sinful acts & your powerless to not commit these acts. We Calvinists are accused of being puppets at time & it would be true if we were fatalists. Thankfully it is not. Praise God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Tom says :

"I also admit that I don't know how God's sovereignty and human will work together. Nor do I understand how God incorporates evil into his plan. But the scriptures say they do, and that's good enough for me."

I agree...think thats called faith!

God Bless

 

[quantumfaith]

Gods instructing me to eat a high fiber with flaxseed & no sugar....oh yes I put some blueberries in it & sprinkle it with kashi seeds....No grits though Dave....perhaps Mothers oats! :wavey:

In another life, fresh eggs & Bacon & sausage with rye toast & tons of butter & coffee......ah yes I can dream!

I can only wish that I "et" so healthy. However, I am quite active with running, gym and tennis.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I can only wish that I "et" so healthy. However, I am quite active with running, gym and tennis.

Good for you ....keep up the good habits & dont get old.:thumbs:

BTW: I used to run 20 mi, 1000 situps, 100 pushups & weights. I boxed & ran the ....ah just recognize the importance of genetics & how they affect you with age. I still had 3 heart attacks & contracted diabetes. Why because it is genetics.

 

[JesusFan]

This is just another attempt to marginalize me by trying to paint me outside the mainstream.

What you do is divide and conquer. If you can get other Cals to blacklist me then your task is much easier.

The fact of the matter is that you have been called on your HORRIFIC spinning of Edwards now by at least three of us. Your ability to create a rift between me and historic Calvinism weakens each time someone else notices that you don't get it.

You have also been challenged to provide those "quotes" by Bruce Ware with which my position on compatibalism is at odds.

I do not think you can do it- and I'll tell you why. I learned it MOSTLY from Bruce Ware.

MOST of what I have said to you along those lines for the past six months or so have been paraphrases of things I learned from him at conferences, in debates we've watched, videos we've watched and books he has written.

The more you try to do this, the more you injure your credibility- and that is the OPPOSITE of what you are trying to do. You are actually TRYING to injure mine- whether you are ever successful or not at that endeavor is up to the level of thoughtfulness of people who read your posts and mine. I am not responsible for that.


That I am harder than most is no secret. That MOST of my Calvinist brothers would season their words with a bit more grace than I do is without question.

But that we are all on the same page theologically is clear- no matter how hard you try to divide us.

You do realise though that there are some varying viewpoints, differences among those that do hold to DoG, right?

that there are Low Mid High parts of it correct?

And that we MUST still adhere to Bible, not to the creeds/confessionals authors other than in Bible etc as beign THE authoritative sources

just saying in a loving way that there is a broader canvas than what you paint as being "rel cal" and that at times seems at times that you are implying that those authors/creed etc seem to be where theology comes from, not the Bible only!

 

[Skandelon]

This is just another attempt to marginalize me by trying to paint me outside the mainstream.

You do that to yourself brother. I just help point it out for others to recognize as a tendency of some reformed folks...

What you do is divide and conquer. If you can get other Cals to blacklist me then your task is much easier.

You are confusing your motives with mine. You are the one who tries to flatter me and say you respect my intelligence and the fact that I have a REAL theological position all the while calling other non-Calvinists no-namers and using me as some poster child for what they should be like. We all see right through your motives Luke. Why? Because in the very next post you will attack me as not understanding my own theological position and not being smart enough to understand yours. Which is it?

The fact of the matter is that you have been called on your HORRIFIC spinning of Edwards

Edwards claimed to be in agreement with the Arminian divines in that quote. I didn't make that claim. Now, you can claim (as one did) that Edwards was just mistaken, but that's not on me. You need to take it up with Edwards.

You have also been challenged to provide those "quotes" by Bruce Ware with which my position on compatibalism is at odds.

It takes time and effort to dig back through your quotes and to listen and record all of Bruce's exact quotes, but one can just listen and notice the differences. If you'd shown ANY willingness to hear and learn or adapt you verbiage in the past when confronted by me and even "your own," I might take the time to do that, but right now its just about winning a debate for you and frankly I don't care that much to win a point in a debate where you are already been clearly proven to overstep the mainstream views.

I do not think you can do it- and I'll tell you why. I learned it MOSTLY from Bruce Ware.

I'm sure you did and you probably really think what you are saying means the same thing as he does, but your words aren't clearly presented or defined in such a way as to know that with any certainty in any given post.

Oh, and you still haven't answered the question. Does Edwards Quote (which is in agreement with Arminianism by HIS own admission) agree with Ware's form of Compatabilism or not?

And do either of them ever teach that God "does IT" but "IT" is never evil because He does "IT" with a pure motive. ("IT" being everything --- Every event, every thing ever done from the Incarnation of Christ to Dahmer's rape, moletation and murder of children). Where is that taught?

 

[kyredneck]

....Historic Calvinism abandons this issue to the realm above the mental abilities of mortal man.....

Prehistoric Calvinism does too:

5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, And laid thy hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain unto it. Ps 139

 

[kyredneck]

And Grits.

....um, um, grits, and I mean the stone ground kind that you have to cook for twenty minutes; eat um' w/ butter & pepper, or sweeten um' w/honey, chill um' and cut into slices and meal um' and fry um', cheesy grits, grit casseroles.....Chefs down south do some marvelous, wondermous creations with grits....

 

[quantumfaith]

....um, um, grits, and I mean the stone ground kind that you have to cook for twenty minutes; eat um' w/ butter & pepper, or sweeten um' w/honey, chill um' and cut into slices and meal um' and fry um', cheesy grits, grit casseroles.....Chefs down south do some marvelous, wondermous creations with grits....

Can't go wrong with grits using any recipe. Cheese grits goe especially well with fish. MMM

 

[Amy.G]

Can't go wrong with grits using any recipe. Cheese grits goe especially well with fish. MMM

STOP TALKING ABOUT GRITS! You're making me hungry! I loves me some grits!

 

[JesusFan]

STOP TALKING ABOUT GRITS! You're making me hungry! I loves me some grits!

Had grits one time in georgia...

Looked and tasted like burnt oatmeal...

At least to this Michigan man!

 

[kyredneck]

Had grits one time in georgia...

Looked and tasted like burnt oatmeal...

At least to this Michigan man!

...bloomin' Yankees have no idee what good food is....

(I do love the perch and walleye from The Lakes though... )

 

[JesusFan]

...bloomin' Yankees have no idee what good food is....

(I do love the perch and walleye from The Lakes though... )

Do love our food, every year Detroit tops "fattest people" per capita list!

 

[kyredneck]

Do love our food, every year Detroit tops "fattest people" per capita list!

heheh, so you'd never guess from lookin' that there's a terrible recession goin' on up there, huh?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

....um, um, grits, and I mean the stone ground kind that you have to cook for twenty minutes; eat um' w/ butter & pepper, or sweeten um' w/honey, chill um' and cut into slices and meal um' and fry um', cheesy grits, grit casseroles.....Chefs down south do some marvelous, wondermous creations with grits....

KR.....now your talking Carbs & Cals.....fried too (give me a zocor) LOL

At least if Im going to get clogged again I will take an original Rays Pizza right outa the oven.

 

[JesusFan]

heheh, so you'd never guess from lookin' that there's a terrible recession goin' on up there, huh?

nah, just we can get dozen White castle burgers at $5 a bag!