Does anything we do matter?

Exactly.

And I do not think we disagree much at all. I have followed your posts quite a bit. I have been so heinously misrepresented until it may appear that we disagree, but if we do, it is only slightly.

I agree 100% with Bruce Ware's take on compatibalism. Skandelon has tried to make that position appear to be outside of mainstream Calvinism- which you and I know it is not.

The problem Skandelon has had is me saying, concerning the affliction of Joseph, Job and Jesus that "God DID IT." He thinks that means that I am attributing evil to God. He thinks this because he does not understand compatibalism.

 

Luke, actually if I recall the point to which fredrick is referring, regarding you disagreeing, is the same point I've taken up against you as well. And while there are times your choice of words is completely compatible with the mainstream (and what I presume glf supports) there are other times which you are either intentionally or unintentionally not so compatible.

That is why several Calvinistic believers have called you out on several different occasions, but you listen to them about as well as you listen to me or anyone else I suppose. I'm sure it's not you and the ambiguity of your own words that is the problem. Its always everyone one else who just doesn't understand, right?

BTW, if I really thought it would help I could post several quotes of Bruce Ware which seem to stand in stark contrast to points you've continued to make on this board. But, I already went down that road with you and the Edward's quote and I know where it leads.

BTW, you never answered my question: Regarding the origin of evil, in one post you said you agree with Edwards view, which we know is consistent with Arminians view, by his own admission. And in another post you claim to agree with Ware and his view of Compatibalism.

So, are you saying that Ware's Compatiblistic view is consistent that of the Arminian divines and Edwards? Or did your views change?

 

Actually, I've argued until I'm blue in the face with Luke about the permissive will of God. I agree with what you have said, in that God has a decretive will and a permissive will. Evil would fall under his permissive will only, not his decretive will.

Luke's response to this argument has been very clear. He argues against "bare permission" in that, for ANY event to come to pass (good or evil) God must "DO IT." By that he means:

"God must do several things for anything to come to pass.
1. He must permit it.
2. He must enable or empower it.
3. He must ordain or decree it." -Luke

He has also argued...

"It seems to me that you are hung up on the "permitting" part of the quote which I already understood you to believe and on which I figure there is little difference betwixt us. It is that part that clearly indicates that God planned, intended and ordered event for evil to come to pass that you seem to not understand." -Luke

and

"we understand the Word of God teaches that the worst sin ever committed was determined in eternity past by God- it should be no problem for you to see that God has determined all things including those far lesser evils committed by Dahmer." -Luke

Do you agree with this glfredrick?

 

First, you cannot recall the point to which I am referring, because I had no specific point in mind when I posted in this thread. I was responding to the allegation in this thread alone.

Second, some of you folks have (as I said above) taken Luke out of context in multiple ways by jumping on a couple words in any one of his posts instead of reading the entire post in context, and seeing the arguments he makes from his vantage point, which he described very well above.

If there is a difference of opinion between Luke2427 and myself, it is simply that I sometimes believe he words to strongly some of the concepts of God that we both hold as true. That is a very nuanced and minor issue in my mind, and as I have said elsewhere, if I were to err, it would be on the side that Luke2427 takes, i.e., for God's utter and complete control. My saying that, however, does not mean for one instant that I (nor Luke) actually holds that God is a "deterministic" God, aka, Allah of Islam. He is not. While He certainly holds control of this cosmos and the creatures within it, He is not at the same time deterministic to the point where our actions have no consequence. If that were true, the Bible could have been written in a couple of sentences. The evidence to the contrary means that we get to wrestle with the various ways that God wills His divine will, whether permissive, expressive, or otherwise.

Just about everyone on this board has been called out by someone else. Nature of the game when we argue theology. Bringing that up as a debate point is rather a cheap shot, no?

I would actually welcome your doing so, but from what a few of us have seen before, you tend to cherry-pick quotes out of context to make your pre-determined point, and that often contra that of the persons you have cited. I know Bruce, and have studied under him. I am rather familiar with most of his theological teaching as well as that of many of his contemporaries. I doubt that there is truly much common ground in his theology and yours, save that at the bottom line, Christ is still Christ.

 

Ultimately, Luke is correct. Even if God permissively decrees a thing that is otherwise seen (by us!) as evil, then it is God's will that that should be accomplished.

Now, had Luke attributed sin to God, that would be another matter, but saying that God is sovereign in all things is not the same as saying that God is the author of sin or evil. A king is sovereign over his subjects, and his will is absolute, but that does not mean that the subjects cannot rebel. But, should they, the sovereign acts of that king will come to bear on their rebellion. Turning this back to the case of God, we have already rebelled against our Sovereign at birth, and hence, we are already doomed and damned, save that our King has come to set free those who have no other hope! For God's glory, sin exists, and God can readily use what (to us!) appears evil and sinful in order to fully accomplish His divine will.

 

per what you have posted here...

Who do you hold personally accountible/responsible for being originator/author of Sin/death/Evil?

God or satan?

 

Winman,
I offered you verses from james that do answer the question on one hand.
It is a big question in that we are called to live before God in a way pleasing to Him.
We plan to live in obedience to the law/word of God. We are to mortify sin.
murder,self, murder, gluttony, are sins that need to be mortified.
And yet....while we are responsible to live as stewards of God's temple...we can be in great health physically,and if it is our appointed time....be taken out of our bodies when struck by a car, or involved in a plane crash,
shot by a psychotic crack head,etc
so we live each day in light of God's ordained purpose for us....we plan, but our plans are always subject to God's plan.

 

Think way to reason thsi is that the Apostles were equivalent of the OT prophets, so when they spoke and wrote under inspiration of Holy Spirit, was 'God speaking"

prophets were to me on a lesser levels, so there could have been human emotion tied up in their speaking to paul...

However one answers this, God and Holy Spirit are One, so NO contridiction here!

 

Guess God is not deterministic, like your strawman Calvinism says He has to be... :wavey:

 

Annsi,

Would it be "reasonable" or "acceptable" to say that "permissive will" is "free will" operating within the context of available choices?

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

The elusive "thingy" is that "perfect will". At present, I can only see it as being immediately obedient to the commands and precepts of scripture.

 

:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

 

Can God decree in opposition to his own decrees? THAT is the question.

And, are God's decrees dependent on our action? If we go on a diet and lose weight, will God's decree change? If we do not diet, and God decrees we die at age 50 years old, does he change his decree if we go on a diet and decree we live until 75 years old?

So, that is another thing I am asking, can God change or alter his own decrees?
__________________
No....He never has to.Jesus tells Judas.....do what you want to do

judas in doing what he wanted to do....was perectly aligned with God's decree.
Whatever God has decreed always comes to pass because God has purposed it.

[QUOTE1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )


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