Does anything we do matter?

[Luke2427]

Then, I guess that I would disagree with Luke. Oh, and by the way, Luke's name is not Luke. He is using a bibical reference as his screen handle.

Luke and I disagree on a couple of points, with him going to a place that I cannot always support scripturally. But, that being said, he and I are closer in doctrine than you and I, for at least both of us realize that God is the seat of all authority, not the choice of humankind. Additionally, if one reads Luke's posts carefully, he does not attribute to God all the things -- in the same way -- that you suggest he does. He is careful to draw a distinction between God being in control of all things (to which I agree) and the fact that though God is in control of all things, that God's permissive will "allows" some things that need to be in order to bring God further and greater glory.

Some, who are at odds with this doctrine, will grasp the "all things" portion of the post and run with it, as you have just proven, ultimatelty saying things about God that are neither biblical nor accurate, nor even what it was that some other poster wrote.

Exactly.

And I do not think we disagree much at all. I have followed your posts quite a bit. I have been so heinously misrepresented until it may appear that we disagree, but if we do, it is only slightly.

I agree 100% with Bruce Ware's take on compatibalism. Skandelon has tried to make that position appear to be outside of mainstream Calvinism- which you and I know it is not.

The problem Skandelon has had is me saying, concerning the affliction of Joseph, Job and Jesus that "God DID IT." He thinks that means that I am attributing evil to God. He thinks this because he does not understand compatibalism.

 

[Skandelon]

Luke, actually if I recall the point to which fredrick is referring, regarding you disagreeing, is the same point I've taken up against you as well. And while there are times your choice of words is completely compatible with the mainstream (and what I presume glf supports) there are other times which you are either intentionally or unintentionally not so compatible.

That is why several Calvinistic believers have called you out on several different occasions, but you listen to them about as well as you listen to me or anyone else I suppose. I'm sure it's not you and the ambiguity of your own words that is the problem. Its always everyone one else who just doesn't understand, right?

BTW, if I really thought it would help I could post several quotes of Bruce Ware which seem to stand in stark contrast to points you've continued to make on this board. But, I already went down that road with you and the Edward's quote and I know where it leads.

BTW, you never answered my question: Regarding the origin of evil, in one post you said you agree with Edwards view, which we know is consistent with Arminians view, by his own admission. And in another post you claim to agree with Ware and his view of Compatibalism.

So, are you saying that Ware's Compatiblistic view is consistent that of the Arminian divines and Edwards? Or did your views change?

 

[Skandelon]

Additionally, if one reads Luke's posts carefully, he does not attribute to God all the things -- in the same way -- that you suggest he does. He is careful to draw a distinction between God being in control of all things (to which I agree) and the fact that though God is in control of all things, that God's permissive will "allows" some things that need to be in order to bring God further and greater glory.

Actually, I've argued until I'm blue in the face with Luke about the permissive will of God. I agree with what you have said, in that God has a decretive will and a permissive will. Evil would fall under his permissive will only, not his decretive will.

Luke's response to this argument has been very clear. He argues against "bare permission" in that, for ANY event to come to pass (good or evil) God must "DO IT." By that he means:

"God must do several things for anything to come to pass.
1. He must permit it.
2. He must enable or empower it.
3. He must ordain or decree it." -Luke

He has also argued...

"It seems to me that you are hung up on the "permitting" part of the quote which I already understood you to believe and on which I figure there is little difference betwixt us. It is that part that clearly indicates that God planned, intended and ordered event for evil to come to pass that you seem to not understand." -Luke

and

"we understand the Word of God teaches that the worst sin ever committed was determined in eternity past by God- it should be no problem for you to see that God has determined all things including those far lesser evils committed by Dahmer." -Luke

Do you agree with this glfredrick?

 

[annsni]

Back to the topic:

A friend of mine wrote a very good book on the subject of taking care of yourself. She has a great point. God may give us 70 years on the earth but the question is what will the quality of those days be? Yes, changing our diet, taking medication, etc. may not lengthen our days but it certainly will help us to be able to be more effective in the days we have.

Let's say I'm going to live another 30 years. In those 30 years, I've overeaten, gotten significantly overweight - so much so that I now have back and hip problems, breathing problems, metabolic problems and I become very homebound and dependent on others. I cannot do ministry much because it's too tiring for me to be up and about or even to get together with others. What kind of a steward am I with those 30 years?

Or else I can take care of myself, eat well, exercise and make sure that my body is in the best shape it can be. I can continue to do ministry, be involved in missions, help the single mom take care of her kids, cook a batch of food for a couple who just lost a child - all the things I couldn't do if I were not physically well.

THAT makes a difference. We may or may not lengthen our days but the question is whether we can make those days more productive for the kingdom.

 

[glfredrick]

Luke, actually if I recall the point to which fredrick is referring, regarding you disagreeing, is the same point I've taken up against you as well. And while there are times your choice of words is completely compatible with the mainstream (and what I presume glf supports) there are other times which you are either intentionally or unintentionally not so compatible.

First, you cannot recall the point to which I am referring, because I had no specific point in mind when I posted in this thread. I was responding to the allegation in this thread alone.

Second, some of you folks have (as I said above) taken Luke out of context in multiple ways by jumping on a couple words in any one of his posts instead of reading the entire post in context, and seeing the arguments he makes from his vantage point, which he described very well above.

If there is a difference of opinion between Luke2427 and myself, it is simply that I sometimes believe he words to strongly some of the concepts of God that we both hold as true. That is a very nuanced and minor issue in my mind, and as I have said elsewhere, if I were to err, it would be on the side that Luke2427 takes, i.e., for God's utter and complete control. My saying that, however, does not mean for one instant that I (nor Luke) actually holds that God is a "deterministic" God, aka, Allah of Islam. He is not. While He certainly holds control of this cosmos and the creatures within it, He is not at the same time deterministic to the point where our actions have no consequence. If that were true, the Bible could have been written in a couple of sentences. The evidence to the contrary means that we get to wrestle with the various ways that God wills His divine will, whether permissive, expressive, or otherwise.

That is why several Calvinistic believers have called you out on several different occasions, but you listen to them about as well as you listen to me or anyone else I suppose. I'm sure it's not you and the ambiguity of your own words that is the problem. Its always everyone one else who just doesn't understand, right?

Just about everyone on this board has been called out by someone else. Nature of the game when we argue theology. Bringing that up as a debate point is rather a cheap shot, no?

BTW, if I really thought it would help I could post several quotes of Bruce Ware which seem to stand in stark contrast to points you've continued to make on this board. But, I already went down that road with you and the Edward's quote and I know where it leads.

I would actually welcome your doing so, but from what a few of us have seen before, you tend to cherry-pick quotes out of context to make your pre-determined point, and that often contra that of the persons you have cited. I know Bruce, and have studied under him. I am rather familiar with most of his theological teaching as well as that of many of his contemporaries. I doubt that there is truly much common ground in his theology and yours, save that at the bottom line, Christ is still Christ.

 

[glfredrick]

Actually, I've argued until I'm blue in the face with Luke about the permissive will of God. I agree with what you have said, in that God has a decretive will and a permissive will. Evil would fall under his permissive will only, not his decretive will.

Luke's response to this argument has been very clear. He argues against "bare permission" in that, for ANY event to come to pass (good or evil) God must "DO IT." By that he means:

"God must do several things for anything to come to pass.
1. He must permit it.
2. He must enable or empower it.
3. He must ordain or decree it." -Luke

He has also argued...

"It seems to me that you are hung up on the "permitting" part of the quote which I already understood you to believe and on which I figure there is little difference betwixt us. It is that part that clearly indicates that God planned, intended and ordered event for evil to come to pass that you seem to not understand." -Luke

and

"we understand the Word of God teaches that the worst sin ever committed was determined in eternity past by God- it should be no problem for you to see that God has determined all things including those far lesser evils committed by Dahmer." -Luke

Do you agree with this glfredrick?

Ultimately, Luke is correct. Even if God permissively decrees a thing that is otherwise seen (by us!) as evil, then it is God's will that that should be accomplished.

Now, had Luke attributed sin to God, that would be another matter, but saying that God is sovereign in all things is not the same as saying that God is the author of sin or evil. A king is sovereign over his subjects, and his will is absolute, but that does not mean that the subjects cannot rebel. But, should they, the sovereign acts of that king will come to bear on their rebellion. Turning this back to the case of God, we have already rebelled against our Sovereign at birth, and hence, we are already doomed and damned, save that our King has come to set free those who have no other hope! For God's glory, sin exists, and God can readily use what (to us!) appears evil and sinful in order to fully accomplish His divine will.

 

[JesusFan]

Then, I guess that I would disagree with Luke. Oh, and by the way, Luke's name is not Luke. He is using a bibical reference as his screen handle.

Luke and I disagree on a couple of points, with him going to a place that I cannot always support scripturally. But, that being said, he and I are closer in doctrine than you and I, for at least both of us realize that God is the seat of all authority, not the choice of humankind. Additionally, if one reads Luke's posts carefully, he does not attribute to God all the things -- in the same way -- that you suggest he does. He is careful to draw a distinction between God being in control of all things (to which I agree) and the fact that though God is in control of all things, that God's permissive will "allows" some things that need to be in order to bring God further and greater glory.

Some, who are at odds with this doctrine, will grasp the "all things" portion of the post and run with it, as you have just proven, ultimatelty saying things about God that are neither biblical nor accurate, nor even what it was that some other poster wrote.

per what you have posted here...

Who do you hold personally accountible/responsible for being originator/author of Sin/death/Evil?

God or satan?

 

[Winman]

Thanks for the responses, but here is the real question.

Does God want you fat and unhealthy, or fit and healthy? Or both?

Why would God decree you become fat and unhealthy, and then decree you go to a doctor, be warned of poor habits, and turn to healthy habits and become fit again?

Why would God decree a new decree against his original decree? Or, if you maintain it is all one single decree, why would God decree things that are contrary to each other?

I know how ridiculous that sounds, but if God decrees all things that occur, that is exactly what God is doing, decreeing a decree in opposition to his own decree.

 

[Iconoclast]

First, it is not a silly question, I would wager some of the greatest minds have pondered this question. It is a mindless person who accepts whatever they are told without questioning it.

Second, no one answered the question. Do our actions make a difference? If we go on a diet, quit smoking and drinking, could it prolong our life? Will God allow us to live longer if we do so, or has our number of days been determined before the foundation of the world and nothing we do can alter it?

Winman,
I offered you verses from james that do answer the question on one hand.
It is a big question in that we are called to live before God in a way pleasing to Him.
We plan to live in obedience to the law/word of God. We are to mortify sin.
murder,self, murder, gluttony, are sins that need to be mortified.
And yet....while we are responsible to live as stewards of God's temple...we can be in great health physically,and if it is our appointed time....be taken out of our bodies when struck by a car, or involved in a plane crash,
shot by a psychotic crack head,etc
so we live each day in light of God's ordained purpose for us....we plan, but our plans are always subject to God's plan.

6Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

7After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.

21But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus

 

[Winman]

Winman,
I offered you verses from james that do answer the question on one hand.
It is a big question in that we are called to live before God in a way pleasing to Him.
We plan to live in obedience to the law/word of God. We are to mortify sin.
murder,self, murder, gluttony, are sins that need to be mortified.
And yet....while we are responsible to live as stewards of God's temple...we can be in great health physically,and if it is our appointed time....be taken out of our bodies when struck by a car, or involved in a plane crash,
shot by a psychotic crack head,etc
so we live each day in light of God's ordained purpose for us....we plan, but our plans are always subject to God's plan.

If God decrees all events that happen, I do not see how anything we plan makes one bit of difference. What is going to happen is going to happen, it has been decreed.

What I am asking is why God would decree you get fat and unhealthy, and then decree you go on a diet and become fit and healthy?

Can God decree in opposition to his own decrees? THAT is the question.

And, are God's decrees dependent on our action? If we go on a diet and lose weight, will God's decree change? If we do not diet, and God decrees we die at age 50 years old, does he change his decree if we go on a diet and decree we live until 75 years old?

So, that is another thing I am asking, can God change or alter his own decrees?

 

[Winman]

How did Paul go to Jerusalem?

Acts 21:And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.

These disciples told Paul in the power of the Holy Spirit that he should not go up to Jerusalem.

So how did he go up? Did God decree he should go up in opposition to what the Holy Spirit clearly said?

 

[JesusFan]

How did Paul go to Jerusalem?

Acts 21:And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.

These disciples told Paul in the power of the Holy Spirit that he should not go up to Jerusalem.

So how did he go up? Did God decree he should go up in opposition to what the Holy Spirit clearly said?

Think way to reason thsi is that the Apostles were equivalent of the OT prophets, so when they spoke and wrote under inspiration of Holy Spirit, was 'God speaking"

prophets were to me on a lesser levels, so there could have been human emotion tied up in their speaking to paul...

However one answers this, God and Holy Spirit are One, so NO contridiction here!

 

[glfredrick]

How did Paul go to Jerusalem?

Acts 21:And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.

These disciples told Paul in the power of the Holy Spirit that he should not go up to Jerusalem.

So how did he go up? Did God decree he should go up in opposition to what the Holy Spirit clearly said?

Guess God is not deterministic, like your strawman Calvinism says He has to be... :wavey:

 

[annsni]

Permissive will does not equal perfect will.

 

[quantumfaith]

Permissive will does not equal perfect will.

Annsi,

Would it be "reasonable" or "acceptable" to say that "permissive will" is "free will" operating within the context of available choices?

 

[annsni]

Annsi,

Would it be "reasonable" or "acceptable" to say that "permissive will" is "free will" operating within the context of available choices?

It sounds like what I see in Scripture.

God will always bring about His perfect will but there are many times He allows us to make our own choices to teach us, to grow us, to refine us and to allow us to see the consequences of our sin.

 

[quantumfaith]

It sounds like what I see in Scripture.

God will always bring about His perfect will but there are many times He allows us to make our own choices to teach us, to grow us, to refine us and to allow us to see the consequences of our sin.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

The elusive "thingy" is that "perfect will". At present, I can only see it as being immediately obedient to the commands and precepts of scripture.

 

[annsni]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

The elusive "thingy" is that "perfect will". At present, I can only see it as being immediately obedient to the commands and precepts of scripture.

And we're like disobedient kids who have to sometimes do the dumb things to learn that the better way is WAY better.

 

[quantumfaith]

And we're like disobedient kids who have to sometimes do the dumb things to learn that the better way is WAY better.

:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

 

[Iconoclast]

Can God decree in opposition to his own decrees? THAT is the question.

And, are God's decrees dependent on our action? If we go on a diet and lose weight, will God's decree change? If we do not diet, and God decrees we die at age 50 years old, does he change his decree if we go on a diet and decree we live until 75 years old?

So, that is another thing I am asking, can God change or alter his own decrees?
__________________
No....He never has to.Jesus tells Judas.....do what you want to do

26Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

27And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

judas in doing what he wanted to do....was perectly aligned with God's decree.
Whatever God has decreed always comes to pass because God has purposed it.

9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

[QUOTE1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )


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