Does Calvinism ever really answer the major objection?

[quantumfaith]

My primary objection to calvinism is that it portrays God as One who has pleasure in the death of the wicked; One who created an environment for the entrance of sin into the world for no reason other than His good pleasure (sin having no bearing whatsoever, they suggest, on whether God decides to save someone or not); and One who chooses to bring wicked sinners into the world who will never have any hope other than to be burnt in everlasting fire for having been born in sin. I know Calvinists temper this portrayal of God with "Who are we to question why God makes Himself look inconsistently evil in destroying the billions of humans who had no part in their being made sinners and who will have no hope of ever pleading their case for mercy and deliverance from that burning fiery judgment of God's wrath against them for their sin.

Your heartfelt, sincere and genuine admission here is greatly appreciated.

 

[glfredrick]

Your heartfelt, sincere and genuine admission here is greatly appreciated.

But, Calvinists also have an answer for the admission you so greatly admire.

I will ask those who speak out against Calvinism to recall that Calvinism is more correctly called the Doctrine of Grace...

We rightly understand that God is sovereign over and in all, and yet, we also rightly understand that God is a gracious God, for that is what the Scriptures say.

Calvinists do not depend on the fickle nature of a sin-cursed human will to decide our salvation. Rather, we hold to a God who is capable and who has made it expressly clear that it is by His grace that we are saved, and that not of ourselves.

I remember the "question" posed by so many evangelism programs... "If you were to stand before God right now and He were to ask you, 'Why should I let you into My heaven?' what would you say? Because I want to? Because I did something so that You have to? Or the answer always given to that question, "Because of Jesus!" Our salvation is always "because of Jesus" and He is both the author and finisher of that salvation. We are not mindless robots, nor are we saved by our election, that is but one step in the logical and legal order of salvation which culminates with our glorification standing in the direct presence of God and His only Son, our Lord, Jesus Christ. We cannot adopt ourselves, regenerate ourselves, seal ourselves, justify ourselves, nor glorify ourselves, so to say that our salvation is dependent on our choice seems like a square peg in a round hole. Even that is God's choice and perfectly fits with His plan as revealed in Scripture. To say otherwise is to rebel against that same God so as to elevate humanity to a level equivalent with the very throne of God. May it never be!

 

[Aaron]

The underlyying complaint and basis of their theology remains: This is simply "not fair" and because THEY say so, it is rejected, even though it is Biblical truth.

That's correct. It will always boil down to "why doth He yet find fault, for who hath resisted His will?"

 

[Aaron]

We cannot adopt ourselves, regenerate ourselves, seal ourselves, justify ourselves, nor glorify ourselves, so to say that our salvation is dependent on our choice seems like a square peg in a round hole. Even that is God's choice and perfectly fits with His plan as revealed in Scripture.

To say otherwise is to rebel against that same God
so as to elevate humanity to a level equivalent with the very throne of God.
May it never be!​

:thumbs::thumbs:​

 

[Iconoclast]

My primary objection to calvinism is that it portrays God as One who has pleasure in the death of the wicked; One who created an environment for the entrance of sin into the world for no reason other than His good pleasure (sin having no bearing whatsoever, they suggest, on whether God decides to save someone or not); and One who chooses to bring wicked sinners into the world who will never have any hope other than to be burnt in everlasting fire for having been born in sin. I know Calvinists temper this portrayal of God with "Who are we to question why God makes Himself look inconsistently evil in destroying the billions of humans who had no part in their being made sinners and who will have no hope of ever pleading their case for mercy and deliverance from that burning fiery judgment of God's wrath against them for their sin.

Marke
let's see if we can sort this out a bit.

My primary objection to calvinism is that it portrays God as One who has pleasure in the death of the wicked;

Calvinism describes how many saints have view God's saving work all through redemptive history. As such it believes ALL the scriptures regarding both God's salvation,and the damnation of those who remain in the first Adam.
so when Ezk.33 says this,we believe it and know it will not be contradicted.

7So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.

8When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

9Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

10Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?

11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

So this being true...the focus becomes the righteous holiness of God.All sin must be punished....in the sinner, or the substitute. Agreed???

Marke...we are told that redeemed saints in heaven praise the Lord for His righteous judgement....they see more clearly than we do. ;

1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever

We should be of the same understanding receiving this truth by faith....and the result should be as it was for the apostle Paul;

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

11Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

and again here;

24And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

25And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

Felix trembled when Paul offered him a complete message,including judgement to come. Paul did not tell Felix...he could have "his best life now"

One who created an environment for the entrance of sin into the world for no reason other than His good pleasure

I do not think this is the accurate picture.Be careful to ascribe evil,or sinister motives to our Holy ,righteous God. We are not told in full all God has accomplished in His eternal plan.

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

(sin having no bearing whatsoever, they suggest, on whether God decides to save someone or not);

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

then you say;

and One who chooses to bring wicked sinners into the world

Adam made this tragic choice....and was given the direct wages of sin...death.
That is the biblical revelation...Calvinists believe it. Do you? Does it say that God forced Adam to do this? If it does not say that.....why would you???

I know Calvinists temper this portrayal of God with "Who are we to question why God makes Himself look inconsistently evil in destroying the billions of humans who had no part in their being made sinners and who will have no hope of ever pleading their case for mercy and deliverance from that burning fiery judgment of God's wrath against them for their sin.

Marke...so when someone says to you that it was not right for God to destroy the world of the ungodly with the flood...what do you say? Was it true and righteous, or not?:type:
Can you see that those labeled Calvinists...just believe the biblical record.:thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

29 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers! 33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

You is referring to ALL of them...Israel.
Aaron, look at the whole context brother. They are ALL guilty because they have ALL done the same thing.

They say, "we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets"

Jesus says, "you testify against yourselves...I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them YOU will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

Question: So, what does Jesus say is the result of THEM killing and flogging the prophets sent to THEM?

"And so upon you will come all the righteous blood..."

Question: So, Aaron, WHY will the righteous blood come upon them?

Let's see our options:

Aaron's Option: Because God has arbitarily decided to hold them responsible for sins committed by their forefathers?

Biblical Option: Because they were doing the exact same thing as their forefathers and thus ALL OF THEM (Israel as a whole) were guilty of killing God's messengers.

I'll allow the objective reader decide which option is valid...

 

[marke]

Your heartfelt, sincere and genuine admission here is greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much. I greatly appreciate your words of encouragement.

 

[12strings]

FROM MARKE:

My primary objection to calvinism is that it portrays God as One who has pleasure in the death of the wicked;

I don't know of any Calvinist who would agree with this statement.

...and One who chooses to bring wicked sinners into the world who will never have any hope other than to be burnt in everlasting fire for having been born in sin....

EVERY christian who accepts the omniscience of God must also deal with this reality: God created millions of people who HE KNEW would never trust him for salvation, and so would be forever lost. He knew their fate before creation, and yet went ahead with creating them.

Cal or Non-cal, it makes no difference; both have to deal with this fact.

 

[marke]

But, Calvinists also have an answer for the admission you so greatly admire.
I will ask those who speak out against Calvinism to recall that Calvinism is more correctly called the Doctrine of Grace...
We rightly understand that God is sovereign over and in all, and yet, we also rightly understand that God is a gracious God, for that is what the Scriptures say.
Calvinists do not depend on the fickle nature of a sin-cursed human will to decide our salvation. Rather, we hold to a God who is capable and who has made it expressly clear that it is by His grace that we are saved, and that not of ourselves.
I remember the "question" posed by so many evangelism programs... "If you were to stand before God right now and He were to ask you, 'Why should I let you into My heaven?' what would you say? Because I want to? Because I did something so that You have to? Or the answer always given to that question, "Because of Jesus!" Our salvation is always "because of Jesus" and He is both the author and finisher of that salvation. We are not mindless robots, nor are we saved by our election, that is but one step in the logical and legal order of salvation which culminates with our glorification standing in the direct presence of God and His only Son, our Lord, Jesus Christ. We cannot adopt ourselves, regenerate ourselves, seal ourselves, justify ourselves, nor glorify ourselves, so to say that our salvation is dependent on our choice seems like a square peg in a round hole. Even that is God's choice and perfectly fits with His plan as revealed in Scripture. To say otherwise is to rebel against that same God so as to elevate humanity to a level equivalent with the very throne of God. May it never be!

As I said earlier, there is no doubt that Calvinism is based upon scriptures. The problem is that there are also scriptures which are quietly omitted from Calvinist doctrine which would completely destroy the foundation of Calvinism if they were to be included.

What I pointed out in the last post is the fact that I see Calvinism not only overlooking certain scriptures, but overlooking the untold millions of people that are proven to be under God's loving watch and care as revealed by those absent scriptures. God is not pleased that the wicked go to hell (Eze. 18:32). God has clearly expressed the grief that the creation of man and the entrance of sin has caused Him (Gen. 6:6). And God sends his ambassadors into all the world to declare to the whole world that He is no longer imputing their trespasses to them and will not hold them guilty for their sins if they will only be reconciled to Him as told (2 Cor. 5:17-21).

How Calvinists can imagine that God deliberately brings sinners into the world, knowing in advance that He has no plans for them other than to burn them in the lake of fire forever in vengeful wrath simply for being born sinners is beyond my ability to comprehend.

 

[Skandelon]

FROM MARKE:My primary objection to calvinism is that it portrays God as One who has pleasure in the death of the wicked;

I don't know of any Calvinist who would agree with this statement.

Some do seem to interpret Ephesians where it says that God 'works all thing according to the pleasure of his will' in a manner that comes across this way. However, others are better at separating and defining God's sovereign decree and his pleasure. Either way, in a system where God's sovereignty is defined as His having complete and total determinative control over everything thing that comes to pass in such a way that it could not have been otherwise, this is the natural objection.

EVERY christian who accepts the omniscience of God must also deal with this reality

Only if you equate foreknowledge with fore-determination.

 

[marke]

Marke let's see if we can sort this out a bit.
Calvinism describes how many saints have view God's saving work all through redemptive history. As such it believes ALL the scriptures regarding both God's salvation,and the damnation of those who remain in the first Adam.
so when Ezk.33 says this,we believe it and know it will not be contradicted.
So this being true...the focus becomes the righteous holiness of God.All sin must be punished....in the sinner, or the substitute. Agreed???

When Jesus shed His blood for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2), He in effect removed the curse of sin on man and put it on Himself. He was made sin for the whole world that the whole world might be saved (2 Cor 5:19-21).
Jesus was punished for the sins of the whole world, so, in answer to the question, Yes, sin must be, has been, and will be punished.

Marke...we are told that redeemed saints in heaven praise the Lord for His righteous judgement....they see more clearly than we do. ;
We should be of the same understanding receiving this truth by faith....and the result should be as it was for the apostle Paul;
and again here;
Felix trembled when Paul offered him a complete message,including judgement to come. Paul did not tell Felix...he could have "his best life now"
I do not think this is the accurate picture.Be careful to ascribe evil,or sinister motives to our Holy ,righteous God. We are not told in full all God has accomplished in His eternal plan.

That's the whole point of what I said. Calvinist doctrine, when altering and adulterating what the Bible teaches about God's propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 Jn 2:2), teaches that God is evil, but calvinists put the curse on anyone admitting to what they see about the teaching as crossing dangerously over into questioning God. We are doing no such thing. We are stoutly objecting to the slanderous characterization by Calvinists of God as being evil. We dare to echo Abraham's somewhat admonitious question to God personally, "That be far from thee to do after this manner...", and "Shall not the God of all the earth do right?" (Gen. 18:25)

then you say;
Adam made this tragic choice....and was given the direct wages of sin...death.
That is the biblical revelation...Calvinists believe it. Do you? Does it say that God forced Adam to do this? If it does not say that.....why would you???

Adam sinned all right, and God repented He had made man because of His own grief in the matter (Gen. 6:6), but what does this say about God's foreknowledge? I understand that God knew man was going to sin before He made man, which is why He devised beforehand to lay the sins of the whole world on the back of the Sacrificial Lamb, the Lord Jesus Christ (The Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world - Rev. 13:8). The only sin remaining that is not covered by the shed blood of the Lamb is that of rejecting this sacrifice as payment for their own sins, thus plunging the wicked into the horrible position of having to suffer the eternal wrath and judgment of God for their own sins instead of having their sins forgiven by God for Christ's sake.

Marke...so when someone says to you that it was not right for God to destroy the world of the ungodly with the flood...what do you say? Was it true and righteous, or not?:type:

Of course God did the right thing, just as in Lot's situation. Noah faithfully preached the word of God to the whole world for 120 years, but he didn't have many converts, which, unfortunately, contributed to the high body count of those who rejected the message of the grace of God for all those years.

Can you see that those labeled Calvinists...just believe the biblical record.:thumbs:

I can see that their composite view of the limited number of scriptures they focus on to the exclusion of other scriptures does present to them an accurate view of Biblical teaching. I just don't agree with them.

 

[marke]

FROM MARKE:
I don't know of any Calvinist who would agree with this statement.
EVERY christian who accepts the omniscience of God must also deal with this reality: God created millions of people who HE KNEW would never trust him for salvation, and so would be forever lost. He knew their fate before creation, and yet went ahead with creating them.
Cal or Non-cal, it makes no difference; both have to deal with this fact.

I fail to see any Biblical explanation for the creation of sin and unrepentent sinners into the world apart from God's purpose in testing men whether they will follow Him or not (Exod. 16:4).

 

[glfredrick]

I fail to see any Biblical explanation for the creation of sin and unrepentent sinners into the world apart from God's purpose in testing men whether they will follow Him or not (Exod. 16:4).

Wow, you presume a lot upon yourself and your understanding of God's purposes.

Does the Bible really say what you suggest, or do you say what you suggest then search for a couple of verses to support your position?

I can only imagine how God might feel about this issue. [edited]

 

[Skandelon]

I can only imagine how God might feel about this issue if you proved wrong and blasphemed Him. :BangHead:

I wonder how God felt when He ordained marke to be 'wrong' in the first place?

 

[glfredrick]

I wonder how God felt when he ordained him to be wrong in the first place?

Are you really going there (again)?

[offensive statement edited]

 

[quantumfaith]

I wonder how God felt when He ordained marke to be 'wrong' in the first place?

Great response.

 

[quantumfaith]

Wow, you presume a lot upon yourself and your understanding of God's purposes.

Does the Bible really say what you suggest, or do you say what you suggest then search for a couple of verses to support your position?

I can only imagine how God might feel about this issue if you proved wrong and blasphemed Him. :BangHead:

Like no one else here in BB land does this. Come on. This is what each person of opposing viewpoints thinks of the other. Don't trot out the "blaspheme" stuff so quickly, I know you are better than that.

 

[marke]

Wow, you presume a lot upon yourself and your understanding of God's purposes.
Does the Bible really say what you suggest, or do you say what you suggest then search for a couple of verses to support your position?
I can only imagine how God might feel about this issue if you proved wrong and blasphemed Him. :BangHead:

Let's just hope, then, that I'm not wrong and might possibly be on to something of a correct interpretation.

 

[marke]

I wonder how God felt when He ordained marke to be 'wrong' in the first place?

Some of your points are really hard to argue against.

 

[The Archangel]

You know what I find sadly amusing? The selective editing by the moderators.

We all know that DHK and Skandelon are not Calvinists. But, as moderators, we should, at the very least expect them to be fair.

glfredrick said this and it was edited:

I can only imagine how God might feel about this issue if you proved wrong and blasphemed Him.

This was edited???? When the newbie, marke, says:

Calvinist doctrine, when altering and adulterating what the Bible teaches about God's propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 Jn 2:2), teaches that God is evil

This is a false accusation. We do not teach that God is evil. To say that we teach that God is evil is to accuse of of Blasphemy itself. Yet, this comment wasn't edited.

Marke continues:

We are stoutly objecting to the slanderous characterization by Calvinists of God as being evil.

Again, the same false statement...proving that the first charge of Blasphemy was no accident.

AND YET THE THEOLOGICALLY-SYMPATHETIC MODERATORS DO NOT SAY ANYTHING NOR DO THEY DO ANYTHING.

Moderators are to police both sides. Talk about a moderator-fail.

Ridiculous! Do your job and moderate both sides. Do not give free passes to those with whom you share a theological kinship.

This proves what I've suspected for a long time: The foxes are indeed guarding the hen house.

The Archangel