Does choosing Christ please God?

Jarthur001 · Jan 6, 2008

J.D. said:

Dr. Ketchum,

(underlines added by me)

You said: “From the context of these verses, it is obvious that God is NOT referring to individuals (Jacob and Esau), but to the nations that descended from them.”

Then you said: “Jacob is the positive example of God’s special intervention in the life of one man to insure His purpose.”

“One man” refers to an individual, does it not?

Also, let’s apply your template to another verse in the passage and see if it works:

v22 “What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the [nations] of wrath fitted to destruction:

v23 “And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the [nations] of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,”

Which nations are fitted to destruction, and which nations are fitted to glory? Who are the nations of mercy?

v24 “Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

Which nation is the “us” nation, which was called? I hope I am a citizen of that nation.

Or does he call individuals? I think so. “Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified… Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.”

Again, you said: “Secondly, it is obvious from Malachi chapter one (that Paul is quoting in Romans chapter nine) that salvation is not the issue in question.”

And then you said: “The issue is what constitutes true Israel as opposed to national Israel. True Israel is not just a matter of genealogical connection to Abraham, but a spiritual connection. The connecting link is not that they had the same blood lines (consanguineous), but that they had the same faith in the “promise” of God”.

Isn’t the “spiritual connection, i.e. “faith in the promise of God”, all about salvation?

Besides that, let’s look further to see if there’s anything in Romans 9 that might indicate that Paul is speaking about salvation:

v3 “For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren”

His desire for his brethren is their salvation.

v8a “They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:”

i.e., they are not saved.

v8b “but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

i.e. they are saved.

v9 “For this is the word of promise”

i.e. the decree to save the children of promise.

v11 “(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth”

– what is “not of works”? Salvation.

v15 “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy”

– how are we saved? “but according to his mercy he saved us,” (Titus 3:5)

I could go on, but one more:

v27 “a remnant shall be saved:”

Looks to me like Romans 9 is all about salvation.
Click to expand...

Very good JD.

I may have to save this for quick posting sometime. This choosing a nation and not a person is held by many on this board, and it becomes clear each time I read Romans that some have never study this. Or if they have, they have done so with no open heart for the truth.

Allan · Jan 7, 2008

J.D. said:

Dr. Ketchum,

(underlines added by me)

You said: “From the context of these verses, it is obvious that God is NOT referring to individuals (Jacob and Esau), but to the nations that descended from them.”

Then you said: “Jacob is the positive example of God’s special intervention in the life of one man to insure His purpose.”

“One man” refers to an individual, does it not?

Also, let’s apply your template to another verse in the passage and see if it works:

v22 “What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the [nations] of wrath fitted to destruction:

v23 “And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the [nations] of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,”

Which nations are fitted to destruction, and which nations are fitted to glory? Who are the nations of mercy?

v24 “Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

Which nation is the “us” nation, which was called? I hope I am a citizen of that nation.

Or does he call individuals? I think so. “Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified… Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.”

Again, you said: “Secondly, it is obvious from Malachi chapter one (that Paul is quoting in Romans chapter nine) that salvation is not the issue in question.”

And then you said: “The issue is what constitutes true Israel as opposed to national Israel. True Israel is not just a matter of genealogical connection to Abraham, but a spiritual connection. The connecting link is not that they had the same blood lines (consanguineous), but that they had the same faith in the “promise” of God”.

Isn’t the “spiritual connection, i.e. “faith in the promise of God”, all about salvation?

Besides that, let’s look further to see if there’s anything in Romans 9 that might indicate that Paul is speaking about salvation:

v3 “For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren”

His desire for his brethren is their salvation.

v8a “They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:”

i.e., they are not saved.

v8b “but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

i.e. they are saved.

v9 “For this is the word of promise”

i.e. the decree to save the children of promise.

v11 “(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth”

– what is “not of works”? Salvation.

v15 “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy”

– how are we saved? “but according to his mercy he saved us,” (Titus 3:5)

I could go on, but one more:

v27 “a remnant shall be saved:”

Looks to me like Romans 9 is all about salvation.
Click to expand...

Of course it is. You skipped all over the chapter to make it say what you wanted, not to mention rewording to your own veiw so it says what you 'want' it to. Why not just take it verse by verse. It is the verse by verse process through which it is seen how the 'chapter' is about a National election to purpose.

Allan · Jan 7, 2008

Jarthur001 said:

Very good JD.

I may have to save this for quick posting sometime. This choosing a nation and not a person is held by many on this board, and it becomes clear each time I read Romans that some have never study this. Or if they have, they have done so with no open heart for the truth.
Click to expand...

It becomes abundantly clear each time I read Romans that some have never really studied the chapter verse by verse. Or if they have, they have done so with no open heart for the truth, but will continue under a presupposition and believe it is specifically dealing with salvation when it is obvious the context is about the Gods election of the Nation of Israel to His purpose.

reformedbeliever · Jan 7, 2008

Allan, this is almost laughable........ if it wasn't so sad. Is it time for you to take a break?

webdog · Jan 7, 2008

reformedbeliever said:

Allan, this is almost laughable........ if it wasn't so sad. Is it time for you to take a break?
Click to expand...

What's laughable? That IS the context of Romans 9 - 11.

Allan · Jan 7, 2008

reformedbeliever said:

Allan, this is almost laughable........ if it wasn't so sad. Is it time for you to take a break?
Click to expand...

I was merely restating what James said in the opposite. I wrote it tongue in check since I to feel it is almost laughable ........ if it wasn't so sad.

I have done it before with some of James remarks. He is used to is

reformedbeliever · Jan 7, 2008

Allan said:

I was merely restating what James said in the opposite. I wrote it tongue in check since I to feel it is almost laughable ........ if it wasn't so sad.

I have done it before with some of James remarks. He is used to is
Click to expand...

Ahhhh........ I see. I didn't see that before Allan. I didn't think this sounded like you. Thanks for pointing that out brother.

Allan · Jan 7, 2008

reformedbeliever said:

Ahhhh........ I see. I didn't see that before Allan. I didn't think this sounded like you. Thanks for pointing that out brother.
Click to expand...

Thanks for watching out and seeking to keep me straight. :thumbs:

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