Does choosing Christ please God?

[npetreley]

Job 42:2-6

2 “I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.

This isn't true according to skypairism. In skypairism, God tries to save everyone but fails. Obviously, God's plan can be thwarted.

 

[Timtoolman]

Who here has denied that these are (some of) the reasons why people reject Christ? No one here is denying this.

The question being asked is why do some believe the Gospel? What makes the difference?

Come on. This is a very simple question.

You don' think the richman believed the gospel. He walked away from Jesus because he did not want to give his all to Christ. The answer is just as simple why try to complicate it!


Your looking for some pat answer that you can go into your teachings of calvin about I take it. Which one are you looking for? Believing does not save.....doncha know. Its choosing to follow Christ and then the HS takes over to allow you to live that life. Is that simple enough for you or does it need to be simpler!

 

[Timtoolman]

I'm so glad you're here. It IS a very simple question, and I'm really glad to see someone say it besides me.

:applause:

You coming along side and cheering for another follower of calvin does not mean you haven't been answered. It has been over and over your looking for some answer that you can reply to using your calvinist doctrine. When you don't get it your lost.

 

[Rippon]

TT , I see nothing complicated about the question as to why some believe the Gospel and not others . You have not given an answer yet . If if throws you for a loop then just admit it . The biblical facts happen to be the same as the Calvinistic understanding on this issue . (John Calvin the man does not need to be part of the discussion here . Calvinism does not rise or fall on account of his teachings . It has been explained umpteen times that most Calvinists here have not read much of his works . So it is not pertinent. )

 

[npetreley]

You coming along side and cheering for another follower of calvin does not mean you haven't been answered. It has been over and over your looking for some answer that you can reply to using your calvinist doctrine. When you don't get it your lost.

Learn to read. I'm not looking for a Calvinist/Biblical response. I already know what that response would be. I said in more than one place in the thread where I asked this question that I'm asking free-willers to answer the question according to their own views.

Why don't you have a whack at it? Explain why you believed but another person didn't. What made the difference such that you would choose to accept the Gospel, but the other person would reject it? Don't bother focusing on why a person rejects it - that has been answered quite well, already. However, nobody has been able to explain what made the difference such that they would accept it.

Here are the answers so far:

1. You accepted it because you can
2. You accepted it because you made a decision
3. You accepted it because you decided to consider it

Pile on some alternate explanations, by all means.

 

[AresMan]

You coming along side and cheering for another follower of calvin does not mean you haven't been answered.

Who says I'm "a follower of Calvin." I am merely asking the same simple question.

It has been over and over your looking for some answer that you can reply to using your calvinist doctrine. When you don't get it your lost.

What are your answers to these questions:

What makes the difference between the saved and the unsaved: God or man?
Why does one believe the Gospel (we all seem to agree on why one does not)?
If God does not make the difference between the believer and the unbeliever, is the believer wiser, smarter, more spiritually inclined, blessed with a better environment, etc. that would enable him to make the right "choice" over the unbeliever? Any way you slice it, someone or something makes the difference; whoever or whatever is the origin of the difference gets the associated credit by definition.

 

[npetreley]

If God does not make the difference between the believer and the unbeliever, is the believer wiser, smarter, more spiritually inclined, blessed with a better environment, etc. that would enable him to make the right "choice" over the unbeliever?

This is precisely why you'll almost never get a free-willer to answer this question. (I say "almost" because someone actually did say it was because of a better environment.) No matter how you slice it, any honest answer from a free-will viewpoint will boil down to "I chose to accept because I'm better than the person who chose to reject."

Free-willers like to say the same problem exists for election, but it does not. The Bible makes it clear that we do not merit salvation in any way. If God had a reason for choosing one over another, He did not share it with us. Therefore no believer in predestination/election can ever say he was chosen because he was better than another person.

To put it another way, those who believe in predestination/election can honestly say "there but for the grace of God go I". But free-willers cannot say that honestly and be consistent with their own doctrine. According to their doctrine, God offered His grace to everyone, so it isn't grace that makes the difference. It's the person's decision that makes the difference. Therefore they must say (if they want to be honest), "there but for my personal decision, go I".

 

[Rippon]

AMEN to what you said np . The "reason" the Lord chose some , that is -- to make them to differ from those He did not elect was due only to the good pleasure of His will . See Eph.1:4-9 . In 2 Timothy 1:9 it says that He saved and called us because of His own purpose and grace .

The Lord has the sovereign right to do as He wills . He will answer to no one . He will have mercy on those whom He chooses to lavish it and He will harden those whom He so chooses to harden .

 

[Timtoolman]

Who says I'm "a follower of Calvin." I am merely asking the same simple question.

What are your answers to these questions:

What makes the difference between the saved and the unsaved: God or man?
Why does one believe the Gospel (we all seem to agree on why one does not)?
If God does not make the difference between the believer and the unbeliever, is the believer wiser, smarter, more spiritually inclined, blessed with a better environment, etc. that would enable him to make the right "choice" over the unbeliever? Any way you slice it, someone or something makes the difference; whoever or whatever is the origin of the difference gets the associated credit by definition.

I guess I don't know how to communicate with calvinist then. I tell you a person can choose or not. There are different reason that the Bible gives. What makes a person who knew who the Christ was (the rich man) reject Him, it was his riches. why does the Bible state it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of needle then a rich man to enter the kingdom. Apperantly rich people have no need for God. It is a human choice. Otherwise I guess you could argue that the HS has to work harder to get those who are chosen and rich to accept. Yes all through the bible there shows human choice. Does it interfer with God's plan? NOt in the least! That is a soveriegn God!! Try to figure it out.....can't do it. Deny it if lyou want and be a calvinist that is your free choice.
I can discuss all you want as long as you can remain civil and not condescending. I have yet to see that from Net.

 

[Timtoolman]

This is precisely why you'll almost never get a free-willer to answer this question. (I say "almost" because someone actually did say it was because of a better environment.) No matter how you slice it, any honest answer from a free-will viewpoint will boil down to "I chose to accept because I'm better than the person who chose to reject."

Free-willers like to say the same problem exists for election, but it does not. The Bible makes it clear that we do not merit salvation in any way. If God had a reason for choosing one over another, He did not share it with us. Therefore no believer in predestination/election can ever say he was chosen because he was better than another person.

To put it another way, those who believe in predestination/election can honestly say "there but for the grace of God go I". But free-willers cannot say that honestly and be consistent with their own doctrine. According to their doctrine, God offered His grace to everyone, so it isn't grace that makes the difference. It's the person's decision that makes the difference. Therefore they must say (if they want to be honest), "there but for my personal decision, go I".

Who truely has the right too boast? The one who is chosen or the one who believes all can be saved?
If I offer 1 mil to all and some reject it what does anyone have to boast over. The ones who excepted are no more special then the ones who rejected it. Becasue they could have had it! Who can boast than...it is I the calvinist for I have been cchosen and not you! God sees some good pleasure (piper lingo)in me that He does not see in you na na nah.

 

[npetreley]

Who truely has the right too boast? The one who is chosen or the one who believes all can be saved?
If I offer 1 mil to all and some reject it what does anyone have to boast over. The ones who excepted are no more special then the ones who rejected it. Becasue they could have had it! Who can boast than...it is I the calvinist for I have been cchosen and not you! God sees some good pleasure (piper lingo)in me that He does not see in you na na nah.

You obviously have a reading comprehension problem.

 

[Timtoolman]

You obviously have a reading comprehension problem.

Maybe, but compared to a lack of comprehension I will settle for that. Maybe you can get some.:laugh:

 

[AresMan]

I tell you a person can choose or not. There are different reason that the Bible gives. What makes a person who knew who the Christ was (the rich man) reject Him, it was his riches. why does the Bible state it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of needle then a rich man to enter the kingdom. Apperantly rich people have no need for God. It is a human choice.

This still is not helping your argument. This is yet another instance of why one does not "choose Christ."

Otherwise I guess you could argue that the HS has to work harder to get those who are chosen and rich to accept.

Why would something be hard at all for God? "Choosing Christ" is impossible for man, but possible only for God:

Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Mar 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mar 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Luk 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Luk 18:26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
Luk 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

Yes all through the bible there shows human choice.

Yes, and that choice always results in rejecting God by default. It takes an individual, supernatural act of God in a heart (Holy Spirit conviction) before a sinner who has a choice will actually choose the right thing.

Does it interfer with God's plan? NOt in the least! That is a soveriegn God!! Try to figure it out.....can't do it. Deny it if lyou want and be a calvinist that is your free choice.
I can discuss all you want as long as you can remain civil and not condescending. I have yet to see that from Net.

God is sovereign in giving man a choice. This choice always consciously, willfully, rejects God by default. The fact that there are exceptions is that the Holy Spirit brings the truth to hearts.

Do we make such choices in a vacuum? Don't forget that we are all sinners. Does this not make sense that our wills are not in a completely "free" libertarian "Let's Make a Deal," eeny-meeny-miney-moe sense? Our choices is ultimately affected by who we are, and we are sinners.

 

[Timtoolman]

This still is not helping your argument. This is yet another instance of why one does not "choose Christ."

Why would something be hard at all for God? "Choosing Christ" is impossible for man, but possible only for God:


Yes, and that choice always results in rejecting God by default. It takes an individual, supernatural act of God in a heart (Holy Spirit conviction) before a sinner who has a choice will actually choose the right thing.

God is sovereign in giving man a choice. This choice always consciously, willfully, rejects God by default. The fact that there are exceptions is that the Holy Spirit brings the truth to hearts.

Do we make such choices in a vacuum? Don't forget that we are all sinners. Does this not make sense that our wills are not in a completely "free" libertarian "Let's Make a Deal," eeny-meeny-miney-moe sense? Our choices is ultimately affected by who we are, and we are sinners.

1. Sure it does help my arguement. Unless you are saying that God finds it harder too save the rich man. I think the context lends to the fact that man does not want to give up all to follow Christ. His choice is his riches here on earth.

2. Exactly why would something be hard for God here on earth. It seems that men do "of free will " choose God or the world.

3. I agree wholeheartly that God is soveriegn. I believe however that scripture clearly lays out that method which the soveriegn God has chosen. Believe and live, reject and burn. I can only agree with scripture when it says that if the son of man is lifted up then He will draw all toward Him.

 

[Rex77]

Does choosing Christ please God?

There is joy in heaven , so if it gives joy to the hosts of heaven I would
say it also pleases God. I don't think God would be left out of the rejoycing.

Lu 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

 

[npetreley]

Lu 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

You are equating choice with repentance, which is maybe how you think it works. I'm talking about the free-willer's concept of how the free-will choice is the hinge and turning point upon which salvation depends.

What I want to know is, if you are not saved until you made the "right" choice, how did you manage to make a decision that pleased God while you were still spiritually dead, in the flesh?

 

[AresMan]

1. Sure it does help my arguement. Unless you are saying that God finds it harder too save the rich man.

Where did I even remotely imply this? You should be asking yourself this question. Nothing is "hard" at all in any way for God. If God intends or decrees for something to happen, it will happen. Period. Anything less and God is not God.

I think the context lends to the fact that man does not want to give up all to follow Christ. His choice is his riches here on earth.

Yes. You seem to be getting my point here. :applause:

2. Exactly why would something be hard for God here on earth.

There is nothing hard for God. Period.

It seems that men do "of free will " choose God or the world.

The only ones who have a "free" will are the ones who have had their will freed from the bondage of sin and hearts illumined to recognize the truth of the Gospel.

3. I agree wholeheartly that God is soveriegn. I believe however that scripture clearly lays out that method which the soveriegn God has chosen. Believe and live, reject and burn.

Yes.

I can only agree with scripture when it says that if the son of man is lifted up then He will draw all toward Him.

The word for draw there means "drag" as something that is tied to something. This does need mean some kind of gentle "woo" or "whisper." Since the context of the passage indicates that there were Greeks who came to see Jesus (and the word men in the verse is in italics and is not present in the Greek), it is likely that the all implies "Jews and Gentiles" or "people of every kindred, tongue, and nation" as opposed to "Jews only."

If "all" (as in every individual who ever lived) are dragged and tied to Christ, why are not all saved, and why are there those who reject Him?

 

[Timtoolman]

Where did I even remotely imply this? You should be asking yourself this question. Nothing is "hard" at all in any way for God. If God intends or decrees for something to happen, it will happen. Period. Anything less and God is not God.

Yes. You seem to be getting my point here. :applause:

There is nothing hard for God. Period.
The only ones who have a "free" will are the ones who have had their will freed from the bondage of sin and hearts illumined to recognize the truth of the Gospel.

Yes.

The word for draw there means "drag" as something that is tied to something. This does need mean some kind of gentle "woo" or "whisper." Since the context of the passage indicates that there were Greeks who came to see Jesus (and the word men in the verse is in italics and is not present in the Greek), it is likely that the all implies "Jews and Gentiles" or "people of every kindred, tongue, and nation" as opposed to "Jews only."

If "all" (as in every individual who ever lived) are dragged and tied to Christ, why are not all saved, and why are there those who reject Him?

Actually I thnk you know better then that. There is much arguement agains that. It could be a wooing and depends on where you want to put your trust.
I know many calvinist who admitt that Jn 3:16 is a problem if studied honestly. The world, or "cosmo" if I remember correctly (without going back over the many studies of this verse) does pt directly to the world ...all the world. I have met calvinist who have admitted it is a hard verse to rectifry. Also 2 Peter 2:1. However Jn 3:16 has always been the spear in the side of those who follow calvin'st teachings. It truely is a great verse that contains the good news. What is there to boast in if all are able. The ones who truely can boast are the ones who were "Picked" While others were not.

 

[AresMan]

Actually I thnk you know better then that. There is much arguement agains that. It could be a wooing and depends on where you want to put your trust.

Ain't no joke. Try a concordance or a Bible program.

G1667
ἑλίσσω
helissō
hel-is'-so
A form of G1507; to coil or wrap: - fold up.

G1668
ἕλκος
helkos
hel'-kos
Probably from G1670; an ulcer (as if drawn together): - sore.

G1669
ἑλκόω
helkoō
hel-ko'-o
From G1668; to cause to ulcerate, that is, (passively) be ulcerous: - full of sores.

G1670
ἑλκύω, ἕλκω
helkuō helkō
hel-koo'-o, hel'-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.

G1828
ἐξέλκω
exelkō
ex-el'-ko
From G1537 and G1670; to drag forth, that is, (figuratively) to entice (to sin): - draw away.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

[G1670] ελκυσω (helkusw)

Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

[G1668] ελκη (helkē)

Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

[G1670] ελκυσαι (helkusai)

Act 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

[G1670] ειλκυσαν (heilkusan)

Act 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

[G1670] ειλκον (heilkon)

Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[G1667] ελιξεις (elixeis)

Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

[G1828] εξελκομενος (exelkomenos)

Jam 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

[G1670] ελκουσιν (helkousin)

It is clear that the word used for draw in John 12:32 means that the one doing the drawing is the one who has the power to move the drawee, not the other way around. Those who are drawn here are like the fish drawn from the sea by a net, like Paul who was caught and drawn before the rulers, and like those who are drawn into court. This is no gentile, quiet, "woo" or "whisper." The One Who does the drawing in this verse gets what He draws.

I know many calvinist who admitt that Jn 3:16 is a problem if studied honestly.

I am not a Calvinist. I do, however, agree with total depravity and irresistible grace. One who is saved must give all credit of any kind of absolutely every part of the salvation "package" to God.

The world, or "cosmo" if I remember correctly (without going back over the many studies of this verse) does pt directly to the world ...all the world. I have met calvinist who have admitted it is a hard verse to rectifry.

I don't know of anyone--Cal or non-Cal--who actually has any problem with John 3:16. According to John 3:16, only believers are saved. No one should have a problem with that.

Also 2 Peter 2:1.

I don't accept the necessity for "limited atonement."

However Jn 3:16 has always been the spear in the side of those who follow calvin'st teachings. It truely is a great verse that contains the good news.

I don't see where John 3:16 is a problem for anyone. It is good news. Without the simple channel of faith, none could be saved.

What is there to boast in if all are able.

If the difference between the believer and the unbeliever is not ultimately God Himself, then the believer can boast in the fact that somehow he was wiser/more righteous/more spiritually inclined to make the "right choice" as opposed to the dumb/more wicked/less spiritually inclined.

The ones who truely can boast are the ones who were "Picked" While others were not.

Boast in whom? God or man?

 

[Timtoolman]

In man of course that he is so special that God chose him and not the others.