Does choosing Christ please God?

Timtoolman,

You wrote:

I have several problems with what you have written.

You said: I want is one to think outside the box of the teachings of calvin

The Problem: Most Calvinists, have not dedicated themselves to Calvin’s teachings, they have dedicated themselves to Scripture. Calvin was essentially Augustinian in his theology and Augustine was essentially Pauline. Neither Calvin nor Augustine were infallible. However, they both do make some very important and very good observations on Scripture.

So, the issue is, as it has always been, Scriptural.

You also said: . Let others tell you what is on thier heart and what thier thinking is. NOt you or your calvinist strawman Try really listening

The Problem: Telling others what is on one’s hear is important, but the leanings of one’s heart are not infallible. If you sincerely believe a heresy like Open Theism, it doesn’t matter how sincerely you believe it, you’ll still be wrong and out of step with Scripture. (Open Theism is just an example; I’m not accusing you of believing this heresy and I’m not saying that Arminianism is a heresy either!).

You also said: And stop trying to "spiritually" one up those they are debating.

The problem: I’ll admit, I’m not sure what you mean by this. However, it would seem to me (not from our discussion, but from other Calvinist/Arminian discussions) this statement may refer to me and some of my Calvinist friends citing Scripture in Greek or Hebrew to show what the author’s original intent was. This is not spiritual one-ups-man-ship; this is true Biblical exegesis and should never be apologized for.

There are three equally bad issues at work here:

1. People who have had training in the languages can, and sometimes do, hold that knowledge over people who do not read Greek or Hebrew. It is wrong to do so. Just because someone has had more or better training does not make that person “Better.” Many Calvinists need to learn this lesson.

2. People who have not had formal training (not that it is necessary, but it does help) can and do resent someone with formal training instructing them in the finer points. Now, this can be helped by a proper presentation, but people still resent being “instructed.”

3. People on both sides of the Calvinist/Arminian debate must always test their presuppositions against Scripture. Many people do not do this (a good example of this is seen on the death of infants. People make many claims that simply are not supported, or discussed, for that matter, in Scripture). Often times people are more committed to “What their heart says” and less committed to what the Bible says.

So, that is a long, LONG way to say that your presuppositions are still showing. Until you (or anyone else) are first willing to listen and evaluate you cannot discuss—that goes for everyone, myself included.. At this point, I’m not convinced you are ready and willing to listen before you discuss.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Wow! You really DON'T have "evidence" of your belief, do you?? It is precisely because we can't "earn" it
that salvation is a "gift," Walt. Belief is NOT a word (Rom 4:5) and obedience is a "condition" of salvation. Show me anyone who doesn't believe and I will show you someone who isn't saved! Show me someone who isn't obeying and I will show you a man/woman who isn't "earning" any sanctification/rewards.

Your point has been raised before. Both words are the same in the Greek. Yet belief is only a "hope" whereas "faith" has evidence and sobstance according to Heb 11:1. Look up the scriptural instances of "hope" and see if it doesn't more coincide with "belief," There's another distinction Calvinism fails to notice -- the difference between "soul" and "spirit."

Well, my theology takes the literal sense when it makes sense. It doesn't make sense that we are spiritually (mind, emotions, and will) dead. Does it to you?

It's the trinity, Walt! We are in the image of God -- soul/God, body/Christ, spirit/Holy Spirit. So if we sin, we are severed from God unto self, right? We aren't "brain dead" though, are we? Body? No.

Yes, sin put YOU, your flesh, on the throne, right? Which way was your spirit inclined thereafter? Toward self and flesh and "dead" to God, right? But suppose your spirit heard about the God of salvation. For just a moment do you suppose you are "halt between two choices?" "Double minded?" Sure! Which will you CHOOSE?? "Choose ye this day whom you will serve," right??

Hallelujiah! You believe God, repent, receive! And He gives you faith /"evidence!!" The Holy Spirit!! And regeneration!! How could you EVER be regenerated without having the Holy Spirit indwelling you? And how could He indwell without you BELIEVE unto salvation??

And that is "sanctification." But suppose you were trying to be sanctified before you had surrendered to Christ. That is what some Calvinists, I'm convinced, do. They "think" they are elect and go about to the tasks of sanctification. But did they take the first step of salvation, justification of their SOUL with God?

IOW, salvation IS CONDITIONAL, Walt. Belief that is NOT "in vain." "In vain" is a "do nothing" beleif or a rejection of the Spirit.

Walt -- sad to say, Calvinism has made a mystery of things that believers should understand. The "mysteries" of God are all revealed in the NT to those who are "perfect"/saved, 1Cor 2:6. Don't be fooled that God has "hidden" Himself. Why do we even have the Bible???? So God can REVEAL Himself to believers, 1Cor 2!!! You would do well to read this as you are trying to go to sleep TONIGHT! The roll it over in your spirit/Spirit. raying:

skypair

 

Ministry is never a waste of time or threads. :godisgood:

skypair

 

If God declares Walt that we must believe, we must recieve and we see those who have rejected God and the Christ then can we not logically assume that this is God's sovereignty on the issue. This is the way that He has ordained it. I would not want to argue that God is weak because He has allowed man to make the choice.

And,Yes Walt I can agree on all three. I don't know of any in my circle whou would disagree.

 

Here is your pacifier.

 

I would think so. Now what?

 

If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

I don't know if a decision is necessarily the turning point, but belief is.
Can a person decide to believe something?
You either believe or you don't right?
A person may decide to be open to believing something, but I'm not sure you can decide to believe something.

 

The debate of a works based salvation is a non starter. Calvin began on the right track and took it to far.

John 1:12,13 tells us that man cannot get credit for salvation whether or not God has given him the freedom to choose Him or not. Our response has nothing to do with the credit for salvation. If man must repent it still cannot be a works based ssalvation. If manmust choose God after God has revealed Himself to man then it still cannot be a works based salvation.

The glory and the credit for salvation begins and ends with He who has the power and authority to give it. Credit goes no further beyond that point no matter what response God requires of us.

 

I don't think Calvin "took it too far," but I do agree with the line of reasoning here.

Scripture provides some clear boundaries as to what salvation IS and what it IS NOT. Our attempts to understand the fullness of the truth must be within those bounds, or we are simply denying Scripture. And I think you're right, that the idea of a works-based salvation is biblically a non-starter.

 

Certainly he did "if" he ever implied that it our response to God consitutes a works based salvation.

 

I discussed this idea here.

 

WaltRiceJr,

I really appreciate your clear, scriptural posts, and the fact that you don't attack anyone personally. The BB needs more like you.

 

Although I don't believe you can will yourself to believe something, I do believe you can:

- Be willing to listen
- Be willing to consider
- Be willing to believe

"I believe, help thou mine unbelief" means "I want to believe"

I can't tell you what changed, but there came a point in my life when I went from not willing to believe, to willing to believe. I know you will say I was regenerated and made willing to believe, but it seems that scripture puts belief before regeneration.