Does Christianity require Pacifism

[1689Dave]

If I were captured by a gang of Muslims who'd tell me "Convert to Islam or die", there wouldn't be anything I could do to stop them. All I could do is die testifying FOR, not against, Jesus.

OTOH, if someone broke into my home, I would be sure it wasn't a Fuller Brush salesman, & if I saw he/she had a weapon, I'd bust some caps on 'em from my own weapon. If he/she were unarmed, chances are that, despite my age, I'm an experienced fighter & some 220 LB. & I could likely subdue 'em. If, however, an invader were to grab my wife, I'd certainly fatally shoot'em without question.

Jesus forbids killing enemies. If you value your wife more than he, you might have already flunked the test without ever taking it.

 

[Van]

1. If we love our enemies and turn the other cheek as individuals as you say, as Jesus taught, then when are we NOT to act as an individual?

2. Church actions against false teachers, as you mention above, are to be addressed, but not with violence. I think you handled that well.

3. I do not know any passage in the New Testament or Old that would support using violence "under color of government authority." Let me add "secular" government authority.
SNIP

1) When are we not to act as an individual (according to our own volition)? When we are acting as the church, or representative of the church, and when we are acting under the authority of government, such as a police person taking down an active shooter in a school.

2) The church is to oppose false teachers to protect the flock. This is not turning the other cheek.

3) "I know of no verse..."
Rom 13:3
For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;

Rom 13:4
for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

 

[robycop3]

If you love Jesus more, then you will honor his word about not using violence to protect them.

Dave, this forum is likely read by some criminals as well as Christians. Don't you realize you're advertising to them that your home would be an easy hit ?

While a cop, I knew a man who carried his pacifism to the point that he wouldn't even own a protective dog, saying that was tantamount to his attacking the intruder himself. he was home invaded/robbed 3 times in a year. I nailed one of those burglars when he broke into the wrong home & was subdued by the homeowner & his 110-lb Bouvier Des Flandres watchdog. He admitted to hitting the pacifist's home, as he had no worries about being shot or dog-tackled, that the man wes well-known to the criminal community. (And he admitted he'd made an error in judgment breaking into the home where he was caught; I responded he'd made an error in judgment in his CAREER CHOICE, that he could easily have been killed.)

I pray this doesn't happen to you, but by advertising your pacifism, are you really doing your best for your family, as Jesus wants?

 

[robycop3]

Jesus forbids killing enemies. If you value your wife more than he, you might have already flunked the test without ever taking it.

Then, why did He tell His disciples to have swords, that had no use other than weapons ?

 

[Alcott]

The Sermon on the Mount prohibits violence for any reason.

Then is threatening-- if not striking; we don't know-- someone with a whip and throwing over their tables with money and animals not violence? Or did Jesus sin when he did that, on at least 2 different occasions?

 

[1689Dave]

Then is threatening-- if not striking; we don't know-- someone with a whip and throwing over their tables with money and animals not violence? Or did Jesus sin when he did that, on at least 2 different occasions?

Jesus was fulfilling scripture.

 

[1689Dave]

Then, why did He tell His disciples to have swords, that had no use other than weapons ?

Jesus had to be framed among the transgressors. The two swords and Peter cutting off Malchus' ear led to this. Jesus rebuked Peter forever forbidding the use of the sword by his followers.

 

[1689Dave]

Dave, this forum is likely read by some criminals as well as Christians. Don't you realize you're advertising to them that your home would be an easy hit ?

While a cop, I knew a man who carried his pacifism to the point that he wouldn't even own a protective dog, saying that was tantamount to his attacking the intruder himself. he was home invaded/robbed 3 times in a year. I nailed one of those burglars when he broke into the wrong home & was subdued by the homeowner & his 110-lb Bouvier Des Flandres watchdog. He admitted to hitting the pacifist's home, as he had no worries about being shot or dog-tackled, that the man wes well-known to the criminal community. (And he admitted he'd made an error in judgment breaking into the home where he was caught; I responded he'd made an error in judgment in his CAREER CHOICE, that he could easily have been killed.)

I pray this doesn't happen to you, but by advertising your pacifism, are you really doing your best for your family, as Jesus wants?

Would you rather die upholding Jesus' words and wear a martyr's crown along with your wife. Or kill an intruder so you can die of cancer or Alzheimers in the rest home?

 

[Alcott]

Jesus was fulfilling scripture.

That is not the question.
Then is threatening-- if not striking; we don't know-- someone with a whip and throwing over their tables with money and animals not violence? Or did Jesus sin when he did that, on at least 2 different occasions?

 

[1689Dave]

That is not the question.
Then is threatening-- if not striking; we don't know-- someone with a whip and throwing over their tables with money and animals not violence? Or did Jesus sin when he did that, on at least 2 different occasions?

Again; “His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house will consume me.”” John 2:17 (NASB95) = no justification for killing enemies instead of loving them.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Again; “His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house will consume me.”” John 2:17 (NASB95) = no justification for killing enemies instead of loving them.

You could love them, but you could defend yourself also.... the shooter at the Walmart is a perfect example. Had someone put a round through his brain we wouldn’t have the carnage... nor would we have the copy cat shooting in Dayton Ohio.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Would you rather die upholding Jesus' words and wear a martyr's crown along with your wife. Or kill an intruder so you can die of cancer or Alzheimers in the rest home?

Stupid question.... I’d rather live to see my kids and grandchildren grow up and prosper. Yes age will catch up and effect us all but that analogy says a lot about you and your martyr theory.

I have come that you may have life and have it abundantly.

 

[1689Dave]

You could love them, but you could defend yourself also.... the shooter at the Walmart is a perfect example. Had someone put a round through his brain we wouldn’t have the carnage... nor would we have the copy cat shooting in Dayton Ohio.

Look at it through God's eyes. All are under his wrath except for Christians. An early death = less suffering in hell for the unbeliever. An early death = heaven and eternal bliss for the believer which Paul says is to be preferred. Personally, I'd rather take a bullet for Jesus than to kill an enemy only to waste away with cancer or Alzheimer's in a nursing home. A Christian might offer their life as a human shield or even try to disarm the shooter. But killing them is not in line with Christian ethics.

 

[1689Dave]

Stupid question.... I’d rather live to see my kids and grandchildren grow up and prosper. Yes age will catch up and effect us all but that analogy says a lot about you and your martyr theory.

I have come that you may have life and have it abundantly.

Abraham loved God more than his only child heir. And was willing to sacrifice him upholding God's word. You can tell God you are not willing to uphold Jesus' words never being put to the test. You've already flunked it. I would not do this. I would say something like by God's grace I could pass the test.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Abraham loved God more than his only child heir. And was willing to sacrifice him upholding God's word. You can tell God you are not willing to uphold Jesus' words never being put to the test. You've already flunked it. I would not do this. I would say something like by God's grace I could pass the test.

Good.... and you keep telling people that their salvation is in question... holier than thou, better than thou...surly I tell you that the prostitutes and the tax collectors...

 

[1689Dave]

Good.... and you keep telling people that their salvation is in question... holier than thou, better than thou...surly I tell you that the prostitutes and the tax collectors...

Just follow Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount and it will sort itself out.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Just follow Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount and it will sort itself out.

Jesus sermon is about Not Having a violent attitude toward your neighbor cause ya know what ya get, look in the news... ya get El Paso and Dayton Ohio. What the lord doesn’t say is be a martyr, stand up in that Walmart and take a round in the chest for that sanctimonious Christian Puritan team that you profess your loyalty to. You are not put in this world to be the Sacrifice, but He was and that was designed far from our mortal lives. We live our lives forever changed, forever humbled, forever grateful... but perfect and sinless we are not. So we, in our changed beings forever seek to cull, educate and protect the herd ... and if that requires us to lay down our lives then so be it... but don’t be thinking you are Christ and it’s your function in life to be Christ and don’t judge ... for by that measure you will be judged.

 

[1689Dave]

Jesus sermon is about Not Having a violent attitude toward your neighbor cause ya know what ya get, look in the news... ya get El Paso and Dayton Ohio. What the lord doesn’t say is be a martyr, stand up in that Walmart and take a round in the chest for that sanctimonious Christian Puritan team that you profess your loyalty to. You are not put in this world to be the Sacrifice, but He was and that was designed far from our mortal lives. We live our lives forever changed, forever humbled, forever grateful... but perfect and sinless we are not. So we, in our changed beings forever seek to cull, educate and protect the herd ... and if that requires us to lay down our lives then so be it... but don’t be thinking you are Christ and it’s your function in life to be Christ and don’t judge ... for by that measure you will be judged.

It's about non resistance of evil and loving enemies in part. It's our calling as his followers.

“Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.” 2 John 9–11 (NASB95)

 

[Alcott]

Again; “His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house will consume me.”” John 2:17 (NASB95) = no justification for killing enemies instead of loving them.

Again, That is not the question.
Then is threatening-- if not striking; we don't know-- someone with a whip and throwing over their tables with money and animals not violence? Or did Jesus sin when he did that, on at least 2 different occasions?

 

[1689Dave]

Again, That is not the question.
Then is threatening-- if not striking; we don't know-- someone with a whip and throwing over their tables with money and animals not violence? Or did Jesus sin when he did that, on at least 2 different occasions?

Where does Jesus tell us to use violence? Do you have an example of Christians using violence in scripture? Other than Peter whom Jesus rebuked?