You are not going to move this guy unfortunately, he is bound and determined to convince people that turning the other cheek is pacifist speak for martyrdom and he thinks that’s what Christ teaches. Don’t let him rent space in your head
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Does Christianity require Pacifism
- Thread starter Earth Wind and Fire
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Again, That is not the question.
Then is threatening-- if not striking; we don't know-- someone with a whip and throwing over their tables with money and animals not violence? Or did Jesus sin when he did that, on at least 2 different occasions?
He's only taking up space on this thread, and I'm not the one who rents them here.
David killed many of his enemies and was loved by God,,in fact when challenged by Goliath... well you know the rest of the story.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Jesus killed the Canaanites too, babies and all when he ordered Israel to obliterate them. But his New Covenant plan for the Church is no longer the same, even though he remains unchanged.
Canaanites... yes, they worshipped Baal. Do regenerate Christians worship pagan gods? So your analogy is skewed.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
As believers, we don't kill people for any reason. God's plan for the church is different from his plan for the church in the OT.
GaoLu
Member
Defining our present moral responsibility by the bad behavior of an OT character rather than the teachings of Jesus is a weak position by which to justify violence.
God loved David, but punished him severely various times for his sins, in particular, David's violence--which prevented him from building a temple and cost the life of his son. Holding up David's moral failures as a moral example to follow for Christians today is not tenable. Holding up the light of Jesus teachings on such matters is. Jesus teaching and example were non-violence and non-resistance.
Jesus overturning tables in the temple is a nonvalid argument for Jesus resorting to violence.
1. There is no indication that any person was harmed or touched or necessarily threatened by Jesus whip.
2. Jesus purpose was to cleanse the temple. His whip was used to free animals (probably only sheep and cattle), scattering anything that got in the way of His love. We are not told if or how people were affected and can only make guesses.
3. Any wild guesses about exactly what Jesus to animals or people in the temple should not be inconsistent with Jesus' teaching.
4. No matter what exactly happened in the temple, there is a massive gulf between Jesus scattering doves and coins cleansing a temple and a so-called Christian killing another person with a gun.
I would hope from Christians a little more serious, more Biblical consideration for Jesus teachings on this matter than I am seeing.
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Im sure you’d have an argument from the cops in Dayton
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
That's the cops job. Not the believer's calling.
I tell you this, you try to harm an innocent, especially a child and you will go to hell. We do not tolerate evil doers who attempt to take advantage. Now here is the challenge, try me! I will take care of the physical and God could sort it out
It can't be proved whether anyone was or was not struck by his whip. But yes, the moneychngers/dovesellers were threatened. He didn't just say "Please take your business elsewhere;" he DROVE them out.
His "purpose?"-- singular? How about to seek and to save that which was lost? And who wanted animals-- big ones-- roaming free over the the temple grounds? John 2:15 says the sellers were driven out "with the sheep and oxen." And we are told how people were affected-- the people were astonished, while the scribes and priests were indignant-- Mark 11:18.
This sentence fragment of yours seems to be missing a word (or 2), and shifts from interrogative to declarative. But Jesus said little about animals-- just the parallel of Him and his followers with a good shepherd and sheep, and to say humans are worth far more to God than any birds.
Jesus is he First and the Last. The first book says to punish murder with the death penalty-- Genesis 9:6. The last book says to pay back "Babylon" twice as much for her wicked deeds-- Revelation 18:6.
So what you see now, bud?
And how about a cop being a believer? His job is still to protect and serve right?
GaoLu
Member
Indeed. He did drive them out. Some time back I drove out some teens partying on my property down along the river. Neither Jesus nor I resorted to violence.
>>>His "purpose?"-- singular? How about to seek and to save that which was lost? And who wanted animals-- big ones-- roaming free over the temple grounds? John 2:15 says the sellers were driven out "with the sheep and oxen." And we are told how people were affected-- the people were astonished, while the scribes and priests were indignant-- Mark 11:18
Yes, He came to seek and save the lost. That too. Probably He didn't want animals roaming the temple grounds. I am not sure what your point would be, because there is still no indication of violence--not the kind that would require a knife or gun or fists.
Note: We could go into the Greek and why scholars think only animals were driven out, but that is hard to prove and has little or no bearing on our conversation.
>>>This sentence fragment of yours seems to be missing a word (or 2), and shifts from interrogative to declarative. But Jesus said little about animals-- just the parallel of Him and his followers with a good shepherd and sheep, and to say humans are worth far more to God than any birds.
Read again. The sentence is not a fragment. It does not shift from interrogative to declarative.
Jesus drove the animals out of the temple. We don't know about the sellers--that can be debated. Either way, we don't see any remote justification for war or guns or fists. We see Jesus cleansing the temple--with authority.
>>>Jesus is he First and the Last. The first book says to punish murder with the death penalty-- Genesis 9:6. The last book says to pay back "Babylon" twice as much for her wicked deeds-- Revelation 18:6.
1. The death penalty is real and biblical. God sets up secular government authority for that purpose. Whatever point of view a person has on this today, the matter has no bearing on Jesus call for Christians to non-violence.
2. And Babylon's punishment is God's doing. Not man's doing.
>>>So what you see now, bud?
Hope that helps.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Believers are not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers in the military or police where officials clearly violate Christian ethics.
But yet they are supposed to protect us...
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Paul says of the magistrate "He (not you) bears the sword. That "He is a minister to thee of good".But yet they are supposed to protect us...
Unfortunately they get involved mostly after the crime has been committed. But my hats off to the Dayton Police Department... the shooter only killed 9 in under 1 minute before they shot him dead. Now was the guy who shot him a Christian?
How did you drive them out, then?
Then is threatening-- if not striking; we don't know-- someone with a whip and throwing over their tables with money and animals not violence? Or did Jesus sin when he did that, on at least 2 different occasions?
GaoLu
Member
I told them they were on private property, pointed out some broken bottles and trash and asked them to leave. I was kind but firm, like I was raising my children. They left. There were no sheep or oxen present, so I didn't need a whip.
In my view, a whip would have been useless in the temple against people with guards standing around and would Have caused a lot of unnecessary trouble.
1. I would think it most likely that the whip wasn't used on people. This is speculation, but I would assume Jesus behavior matched His teaching and not the opposite.
2. I don't personally find knocking over a table a form of violence that can be equated with the form of violence being discussed in some threads recently.
3. Not everything Jesus did or will do is an example of what we should do. He was Jesus. We follow His teaching, we don't die on crosses for others sins or create worlds, judge people or cast them into hell, etc.
Jesus didn't sin on any occasion.
Before we go on, I would like to ask an open question to all:
Is your mind already made up on the matter or are you open to honest inquiry?
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