Does Faith, in either system, merit salvation?

[convicted1]

That is an example of a statement you will never find in the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

Brother Bob, I am not so sure and as Lee Corso says, "Not so fast my friend." Jesus told the Pharisees and Saducees sayings such as "Ye are not of My sheep" , "My words have no place in you", "Ye will not come to Me that ye may have life", etc...

 

[OldRegular]

Blessings.

Looking at that red stuff at the bottom of your posts I am glad I am not a Calvinist cause I sure don't believe that stuff. The Calvinists on this forum can speak for themselves!

The 2 major mistakes of Calvinism:
(1) Presuming a giver only gets full credit for giving a gift if He does so irresistibly. (Acts 7:51)

(2) Presuming that the biblical teaching of man's inability to attain righteousness by law also proves that men must be equally unable to attain righteousness by faith. (Rm. 9:30-32)

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Skan you must recall that the Jews were "judicially hardened" as you vigorously declared when we discussed the 6th chapter of the Gospel of John.

Romans 9:30-32
30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

I believe that you completely misread Romans 9:30-32!

 

[preacher4truth]

Looking at that red stuff at the bottom of your posts I am glad I am not a Calvinist cause I sure don't believe that stuff. The Calvinists on this forum can speak for themselves!

It misrepresents Calvinists bro. It's simply there to antagonize. :thumbs:

 

[OldRegular]

It misrepresents Calvinists bro. It's simply there to antagonize. :thumbs:

I know!:thumbs:

 

[preacher4truth]

I know!:thumbs:

Thank you. :applause:

 

[Skandelon]

=I am glad I am not a Calvinist cause I sure don't believe that stuff.

Good, I'm not either. We have something in common.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Skan you must recall that the Jews were "judicially hardened" as you vigorously declared when we discussed the 6th chapter of the Gospel of John.

Exactly! I'm glad we agree.

Romans 9:30-32
30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

I believe that you completely misread Romans 9:30-32!

What did I say specifically that you disagree with? You started the post saying you don't agree with those two statement and now you seem to take issue with the last statement? Which is it? Do you affirm these statements or don't you?

 

[OldRegular]

Good, I'm not either. We have something in common.

Exactly! I'm glad we agree.


What did I say specifically that you disagree with? You started the post saying you don't agree with those two statement and now you seem to take issue with the last statement? Which is it? Do you affirm these statements or don't you?

Neither statement represents Calvinism.

In your statement #2 you say that Calvinism: (2) Presuming that the biblical teaching of man's inability to attain righteousness by law also proves that men must be equally unable to attain righteousness by faith. And then you reference (Rm. 9:30-32).

However Romans 9:30 clearly tells all of us: 30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. I believe that Justification by Faith [imputed righteousness] was the rallying cry of the early reformers, Luther and Calvin among others!

 

[Luke2427]

Merit - "deserve or be worthy of (something, esp. reward)"

In Calvinism, man comes to faith by a irresistible divine work of grace. Even so, does that faith merit or earn their salvation? In other words, are men saved by the "works" that God graciously caused them to do? Or are they saved by grace alone and the works are merely an outflow or fruit of that grace?

In non-Calvinism, we believe that faith and repentance are responses to God's gracious provisions...responses for which we are 'responsible' (response-abled). But, even still, the act of repenting or confessing in faith doesn't merit salvation. Someone doesn't deserve to be forgiven because they ask for it. The CHOICE to forgive anyone, even those who humbly confess, is all of Grace. God indeed will give grace to the humble, but its not BECAUSE they are humble, but because he is gracious. Their humility doesn't EARN or MERIT salvation. If not for grace, even the most faith filled and humble people in the world would die and go to hell.

First of all I will address this "response-able" thing you like so much.

No Calvinist has the slightest problem with God making creatures able to respond.

A pendulum is made "response-able". I pull it one way, it responds by rocking the other. It is enabled, in the design of it, to respond to my initial action.

However it is responding EXACTLY as I designed it to respond doing exactly what I preordained it would do. Is it able to respond? Yes. Is it doing exactly what it was made to do? Yes. Is it independent? No.

So... I don't see why you think this "response-able" stuff is any point in your favor.


Secondly, your "non-calvinism" (whatever that means- it could mean ANYTHING) idea of faith has salvation going to the better people.

There is a reason why John chooses Christ and Jack rejects Him.

Either John is smarter or less depraved or whatever. But there is a reason.

So Jack then is dumber or more sinful or whatever.

So in your system, God is still electing to save some and leave the others to damnation.

He is electing to save the smarter or less depraved people.

Unless you have God working harder to reach dumber people or more sinful people to even the playing field.

And if the playing field is evened by such means, then the results will be the exact same.

Like it, lump it, thump it, bump it or jump it there is a REASON why some get in and others do not.

No amount of "cry me a river," emotional, feel my way through theology theology is going to change the facts.

 

[convicted1]

First of all I will address this "response-able" thing you like so much.

No Calvinist has the slightest problem with God making creatures able to respond.

A pendulum is made "response-able". I pull it one way, it responds by rocking the other. It is enabled, in the design of it, to respond to my initial action.

However it is responding EXACTLY as I designed it to respond doing exactly what I preordained it would do. Is it able to respond? Yes. Is it doing exactly what it was made to do? Yes. Is it independent? No.

So... I don't see why you think this "response-able" stuff is any point in your favor.


Secondly, your "non-calvinism" (whatever that means- it could mean ANYTHING) idea of faith has salvation going to the better people.

There is a reason why John chooses Christ and Jack rejects Him.

Either John is smarter or less depraved or whatever. But there is a reason.

So Jack then is dumber or more sinful or whatever.

So in your system, God is still electing to save some and leave the others to damnation.

He is electing to save the smarter or less depraved people.

Unless you have God working harder to reach dumber people or more sinful people to even the playing field.

And if the playing field is evened by such means, then the results will be the exact same.

Like it, lump it, thump it, bump it or jump it there is a REASON why some get in and others do not.

No amount of "cry me a river," emotional, feel my way through theology theology is going to change the facts.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[preacher4truth]

No Calvinist has the slightest problem with God making creatures able to respond.

Correct, and as we can see on BB the anti-cals and arminians believe man must enable God to save them, but when we speak of God enabling man to believe they hiss and spit at such a thought.

There is no need to wonder who is on the throne in their ideology -- it's man, and man in control, as to think of God as enabling man to them is to be repudiated.

It is only by the power of God we believe -- it is not personal achievement as preached by skan -- it is not inherent ability, it is God and God alone.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Correct, and as we can see on BB the anti-cals and arminians believe man must enable God to save them, but when we speak of God enabling man to believe they hiss and spit at such a thought.

There is no need to wonder who is on the throne in their ideology -- it's man, and man in control, as to think of God as enabling man to them is to be repudiated.

It is only by the power of God we believe -- it is not personal achievement as preached by skan -- it is not inherent ability, it is God and God alone.

Bravo---:godisgood:

 

[convicted1]

Correct, and as we can see on BB the anti-cals and arminians believe man must enable God to save them, but when we speak of God enabling man to believe they hiss and spit at such a thought.

There is no need to wonder who is on the throne in their ideology -- it's man, and man in control, as to think of God as enabling man to them is to be repudiated.

It is only by the power of God we believe -- it is not personal achievement as preached by skan -- it is not inherent ability, it is God and God alone.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Woot, woot, woot! Encore, encore! Got any more goodies? LOL

 

[OldRegular]

Correct, and as we can see on BB the anti-cals and arminians believe man must enable God to save them, but when we speak of God enabling man to believe they hiss and spit at such a thought.

There is no need to wonder who is on the throne in their ideology -- it's man, and man in control, as to think of God as enabling man to them is to be repudiated.

It is only by the power of God we believe -- it is not personal achievement as preached by skan -- it is not inherent ability, it is God and God alone.

Paul's statement about the Gospel should tell all of us something:

Romans 1:16, 17
16.For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Then of course there are the most wonderful teachings of Jesus Christ in the Gospel of John. Sadly some people can not or will not understand that the Doctrines of Election and Sovereign Grace originated with God, not Paul, Peter. Augustine, or Calvin, or any other man!