Featured Does Faith, in either system, merit salvation?

No one is claiming that "you" are claiming to believe in salvation by works any more than anyone is claiming that Rome claims to believe in salvation by works. What is being claimed is that your position is salvation by works regardless if you admit it or not just as Rome's position is salvation by works whether they admit it or not.

That is precisely my point! Parables are not to be used for "clarity" since they can be easily used to prove whatever a person wants to prove. Precepts are provided in scripture for "clarity" not parables or allegories or spiritualizations.

 

The gospel is effectual to those who have been enabled to understand it, Brother Skan. Go to a morgue and get a bullhorn and yell from the top of your lungs for an hour "GET UP!!!", and see what happens. The same with the gospel. We can preach the most powerful sermon ever preached to the lost, and if God hasn't begun a work within them, it's like the "morgue and bullhorn" scenario I just gave. They can't truly hear and comprehend what we were saying, they have no desire for it.

Adam...

 

BroBro. Skan, do u believe in gospel regeneration? I ask this to help progress our conversing...

 

That's good stuff.

From the title of this thread, I was under the impression that somebody would be discussing the "nature" of regeneration. The nuts and bolts of what it actually is, rather than how and when it happens, to whom, what state they're in first, etc

Alas.

As I see it, the Calvinist position must, of necessity, deny the nature of regeneration in order for it to precede faith and justification

If the nature of regeneration can be found (in part) by looking at Ezek 11, Ezek 36 and Jeremiah 31, and then referenced to Hebrews 8-10 which describes the better ministry of Christ, we can ascertain the man:

is forgiven of iniquity
has his heart of stone removed and is given a heart of flesh
is sprinkled clean
is cleansed from all filthiness
has a new spirit
walks in God's ordinances and statutes

These are the obvious implications in the WCF under "effectual calling"

In other words, the man is godly

But if the man is made godly as a first act of God, and before justification, how can Paul be correct in Romans 4:5 by saying that God justified the UNgodly?

Also, if the man is already godly when he comes to Christ, wouldn't justification seem a bit underwhelming at that point?

So regeneration is reduced to a paltry change of disposition in order that later acts of grace might seem to pack more punch

 

Bro. JamesL, thank u for ur detailed post. I am on my nook and won't be able to giveu such a detailed response as I'd like. It is God who gave us our new heart. It is God who justifies us via faith. It is God who sanctifies us. It is God who gives us the the gift of repentance. I can't find man adding anything to the "salvation equation".

 

When the murderer asks the Judge to forgive him - does the act of "asking" - earn the murderer a pardon?

Calvinists will sometimes state their case in a way that makes it appear that they believe in such a thing though they know full well it is nonsense.

So also the case with a man who asks a local company for a million dollars. Does the "act" of asking "earn the man a million dollars"? Even if the company should decide in favor of the crazy request - is it not still "a gift"???

Sometimes Calvinists will make that case as if it is "fair pay for services rendered" and not "a gift".

There is an example of claiming that the million dollar gift is "earned by works" and not a gift at all - because "after all the man asked".

in Christ,

Bob

 

That is an example of a statement you will never find in the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

It seems that you are saying Salvation is only by the Grace of God. Why then are some saved and others not saved?

 

Are you familiar with these Old Testament statements:

Jer 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; You have chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke:
turn you me, and I shall be turned; for you are the LORD my God.

La 5:21 Turn you us to you, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

If you take hold of a handle and turn it - you are the source of power that turns the handle and thus the handle is being turned as you exert that power.

Regeneration/born of God/quickened are expressions of God's power in changing humans. Repent/believe/conversion are expressions of humans being changed due to God's power.

Just as you cannot divorce the handle turning by your power from the handle being turned neither can you divorce conversion (repentance and faith) from quickening. The manifestation of quickening is conversion. Quickening is as inseparable from conversion as repentance is to faith - simeltaneous actions.

Quickening is God changing man by bringing man into spiritual union with God's very nature or metaphorical lightlife (Jn. 17:3; Jn. 1:4) which disperses darkness(2 Cor. 4:6 with Ephesians 4:18). That union is a revelatory creative act of God (2 Cor. 4:6) within the heart. The gospel brought TO the elect is taken by God and made His creative revelatory word of command WITHIN THE HEART which dispells metaphorical darkness (1 Thes. 1:4-5).

Hence, it is not a matter of CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER because gospel conversion is turning TO God whereas quickening is being turned BY God and are necessarily simletaneous in action just as your hand turning the knob is simeltaneous with the knob being turned. Logically the force precedes the action but chronologically they are simeltaneous in action.

Hence, there is no such thing as a regenerated unbeliever (Hardshellism) any more than there is such a thing as a unregenerated believer (Arminianism)

Thus regeneration is not completed until one is justified by faith as regeneration turns and thus justification by faith is the manifest expression of being turned.

 

You say salvation is unmerited. I agree! Then why are some saved and others not?

 

You accuse me of "beggin the question". I accuse you of dodging the question. In the OP you say:

Please note that in the OP above you are saying that nothing a person does affects in any way their Salvation.

Then in your response to my question you say:

Which completely repudiates the claims you made in the OP. Now which is it Scan. Does the individual choose to be saved as you claim in your response to my question or is Salvation all of Grace and nothing an individual does affects in any way their Salvation as you claim in the OP. Quit shuffling your feet and choose now Skan!

I might also add that you have an extreme propensity to accuse any who question you of "beggin the question". That is not a response.

 

Not really! You simply refuse to answer the question accusing me of "beggin the question". That is your typical dodge!

You are chasing your tail, that is, using circular reasoning. You say:

1. Faith and repentance don't merit salvation!

2. Returning home does not merit salvation!

Expanding on the above from the OP you say:

But then you tell me:

It seems to me Skan that you are running around in circles. A "chooser determines his choices, period" and that merits salvation while "faith and repentance and humility and beggin for forgiveness and being the most faith filled and humble people in the world" do not merit salvation. Am I reading you right? I would really like a straight answer instead of a dodge.

 

All of these terms express the ceremonial language used in Old Testament types. The external ceremonial cleansings were types of the internal work of God removing the presence and rule of sin in the human spirit (in contrast to the soul - Jn. 3:6).

First, you will never find such a chronological statement ever defended by me in any of my posts. I have consistently stated and restated they are SIMELTANEOUS in action.

The order is only logical not chronoloigcal and let me demonstrate. Look at a door handle. If you take hold of the handle and turn it which is first, you turning it or it being turned? Remember, the words "Turn you us....we shall be turned."

You are close. 2 Cor. 4:6 defines this enlightenment as actually God creating the substance of faith in the heart. John 17:3 defines eternal life to be one and the same thing as this light of knowledge being imparted. Matthew 16:17 demands the substance of faith expressed by Peter in Matthew 16:16 did not originate with "flesh and blood" but divine revelation as described in 2 Cor. 4:6. Hence, this divine enlightenment IS creation of the substance of faith in the heart and thus is the creation of a BELIEVING HEART. Such LIGHT of knowledge at the very same time removes metaphorical darkness. This light IS life and that is why Jesus said "This IS eternal life that they might KNOW" as this metaphorical light is life - Jn. 1:4.

The Chronological issue is the same error that some fall into when discussing the order of divine decrees. There can be no chrono (time) order in the mind of God but only a logical order.

Likewise, there can be no chrono (time) order in the statement "turn us....and we shall be turned" as that is a simeltaneous act but logically the POWER for turning precedes the ACT of being turned.

I have NEVER argued that regeneration CHRONOLOGICALLY precedes conversion - NEVER! I have always consistently argued that regeneration LOGICALLY precedes conversion.

Conversion is the experience and expression of regeneration. Regeneration is God turning man from darkness to light while conversion is man turning from darkness to light

Several terms are used synonomously for regeneration (born of God; born of Spirit; quickened; created in Christ Jesus, translated, called, in Spirit; begat; etc.). Old Testament ceremonial language is used to describe regeneration "washing" "cleansing", etc.

The multiple terms are somewhat parallel with the multiple terms used to describe the office of Pastor. Several terms are used to describe the same office because of the various aspects of that one office. He is a feeder (pastor). He is aged in wisdom (elder). He is an overseer of God's work (Bishop) but all describe the same office, same man.

Likewise, these various descriptions of the new birth. Some of the terms are descriptive of its supernatural source ( born of God, born of Spirit). Some terms describe its transition from one state to another state (translated; called). Some terms describe the sort of power used to make this change "created" "new creation". Some terms are used to describe the internal alteration "washing" "new man". Some terms are used to define its essence "quickened" "in the Spirit" "eternal life". Some terms are used to emphasize the divine means for this act of creation "called" "of His own will begat He us by the word of truth" "For as God commanded" "born of the incorruptible word of God" etc.

HOwever, regeneration in essence is being brought into spiritual union with God. God is life and thus union with God is eternal life. God is Holy, thus union with God immediately imparts holiness which washes/cleanses the spirit of man from the filth of sin. God is light and thus the light of knowledge of God in the face of Jesus Christ IS life - 2 Cor. 4:6. Where there is light darkness is removed. Where there is holiness unholiness is removed (cleansing). Where this is God's presence ignorance of God is removed. This occurs in the human spirit (Jn. 3:6) rather than the soul and body of man.