Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Okay they doubted God, is that all you talking about ? Why did you even bring up that scripture ?
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Does Free Will Limit God?
- Thread starter Layman
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
That would make you a universalist BF.
2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
But I am quite sure you will say "The World" actually means those chosen before the foundation of the world.
How else can you get the bible to fit your false theology.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Silverhair
Actually it is the chosen world. Paul addressed them such earlier when discussing their call 1 Cor 1:26-28
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
However thats not the point, the point is the world in 2 Cor 5:19 is reconciled to God, Vs 18 and thats who the imperative in Vs 20 is to, an already reconciled/saved world.
And if you had any Spiritual understanding, you should see the world in 2 Cor 5:19 God doesnt charge with sin, now that being the case, how in Gods creation, them who are lost in their sins, can be part of the world of 2 Cor 5:19 ?
That in itself proves its the world of only some, the elect.
Actually it is the chosen world. Paul addressed them such earlier when discussing their call 1 Cor 1:26-28
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
However thats not the point, the point is the world in 2 Cor 5:19 is reconciled to God, Vs 18 and thats who the imperative in Vs 20 is to, an already reconciled/saved world.
And if you had any Spiritual understanding, you should see the world in 2 Cor 5:19 God doesnt charge with sin, now that being the case, how in Gods creation, them who are lost in their sins, can be part of the world of 2 Cor 5:19 ?
That in itself proves its the world of only some, the elect.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
BF the context does not support your odd view.
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
We, who are saved, once walked in sin but now we are saved because God by His grace saved us through faith Eph 2:8
We did not earn it via works Eph 2:9
And Paul even went so far as to explain what he means by "through faith"
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Do you see the order there BF? Hear the gospel, Believe the gospel and then be Sealed in HIM {that would be in Christ} by the Holy Spirit. That is just what Paul restates in Eph 2:8 "Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith;..."
2 Cortinthians 5:17-19 (ESV) - Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
If I may, being a new creature in Christ is the effect of being reconciled to God. It is something God has done, and it is an accomplished reality. We know many people die without ever giving their life to Christ; therefore, we know that they are not those from the world who received reconciliation.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You certainly on the right track. We know from scripture many are not reconciled to God and shall die in their sins, unreconciled. So to say the least, its not even possible they can belong to that reconciled world of 2 Cor 5:19
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
BF you really need someone to take you aside and teach you how to read.
So according to you God is choosing the foolish things and the despised things, the base things of the world but what I do not see Him choosing in those verses is people.
So I actually agree with you, those verses have nothing to do with 2Co 5:19.
2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Now since He is not counting their trespasses against them we can know for sure He is not reconciling, foolish things, despised thing or base thing, as you seem to suggest by quoting 1 Cor 1:26-28. He is actually reconciling people. And the people He is reconciling is the world. Not just a select group.
Paul is making a clear statement in 2 Co 5:18-19
2Co 5:18 Now all these things are from God,
who reconciled us to Himself through Christ
and
gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 namely,
that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself,
not counting their trespasses against them,
and
He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Paul is telling us that we are reconciled to God through Christ Jesus which is the message that he preaches.
Does that help you understand the word of God better BF? You do seem quite confused.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Saying it does will not make it so BF.
Break it down and prove your case from the text.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
One question for your @Layman well it has two parts
1] when is one in Christ
2] how do we come to be in Christ
One is in Christ when the Holy Spirit regenerates them at the ordained point in time.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
1) He doesn't want everyone to come to Him. If He did, then we would. A true heartflet desire to come to the Lord in faith is the work of God in a person...not the result of a decision that He somehow "leaves up to us".
2) He can and does save all of His people contrary to what their will, at the time of His calling, is.
He has the power and propriety to save, and the power to condemn.
He neither asks for, nor entertains, our decisions as His creations in order to make that decision.
Salvation is entirely of the Lord, beginning to end.
The reconciliation was for the "world" as Paul said. None of us could be saved if Christ hadn't taken our sins upon Himself and taken them out of the way.
The "message of reconciliation" is us who are saved going out and proclaiming the gospel to the lost, that Christ has died for their sins and made it possible to have a relationship with God the Father, by taking their sins upon Himself.
The reconciliation is there for them, just as it was for you. Now that they have heard the gospel they must make a choice to accept or reject that reconciliation that Christ has provided.
I know this is the opposite of what you believe, and that it causes many hard feeling on these boards.
I don't want to be a part of that, but just as you I must proclaim what I believe to be the truth.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So are you saying faith has nothing to do with it?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
They were Gods chosen, I just showed you. The Called and Chosen 1 Cor 1
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
May as well say it, its true
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Not mans faith. Mans faith is dead in sin like he is b4 being made alive
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
@Dave G the bible would disagree with your position.
And does so quite clearly;
1Ti_2:1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Act_17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Joh_12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Act_22:15 'For you will be a witness for Him to all men of what you have seen and heard.
Tit_2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
1Ti_4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
Now you may try to change what these verses say but then you will be found to be fighting with God.
Of course it does.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
BF you still keep running away from statements you make. You said "how in Gods creation, them who are lost in their sins, can be part of the world of 2 Cor 5:19 ?"
Prove this is wrong BF, you cannot but I know you will say you did.
Paul is making a clear statement in 2 Co 5:18-19
2Co 5:18 Now all these things are from God,
who reconciled us to Himself through Christ
and
gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 namely,
that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself,
not counting their trespasses against them,
and
He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Paul is telling us that we are reconciled to God through Christ Jesus which is the message that he preaches.
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