Does God allow us the free will to choose Him?

[Miss E]

The unpardonable sin is not a sin that can be committed today by individual believers. Plus Paul committed the unpardonable sin and was forgiven of it. The unpardonable sin in the only context that it is found in scripture is a national sin and was committed by Israel as noted by Jesus’ words concluding the passage where he says “so shall it be with this generation.” It is the national rejection of Jesus Christ while he was present, by Israel, on the basis of demon possession.

After Mt 12 three drastic changes take place in the ministry of Jesus that can only be comprehended when the unpardonable sin is accurately defined.

BULL.

Excuses. Excuses.

So you agree that the unpardonable sin is heart-felt pure rejection of the holy spirit? Doesn't that mean you have to agree that a CHOICE had to be made by the person who denied the Holy spirit?

You are believing in lies!! PLENTY of people commit the unpardonable sin today by REJECTING CONSISTENTLY THE HOLY SPIRIT'S CALL. After they have committed, God gives them up to their desires and sinfulness! Likely a lot of demons inhabit these people who have rejected God's grace, very sad to think about.

 

[Iconoclast]

Okay, what is YOUR definition of the unpardonable sin then? If you reject the Bible's definition.

I find it in the bible itself;
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The sin was saying Jesus healed by the power of Satan, rather than the Holy Spirit.

 

[Miss E]

I used Wikipedia as a simple source, because it looks like you need basic ideas. I looked at the link you offered the other day, and knew you were badly misled.

It was a reliable source from a Godly man who used scripture and just had a view different than yours. Yet here you are using an unreliable source that can be edited (and probably IS edited) by sinners and demonized people.

 

[Miss E]

I find it in the bible itself;
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The sin was saying Jesus healed by the power of Satan, rather than the Holy Spirit.

Yes, they rejected JESUS as the miracle worker. The main idea here is rejection. Read this passage I just found from a reliable source:

Today’s passage is a frightening one. The thought that a sin could be so bad that it is unforgivable sometimes leads people to fear that they may have committed it. That’s why it is important to understand the context of this statement, which Jesus made to the Pharisees.

Although they had seen compelling evidence that Jesus was the Messiah, the Pharisees refused to believe in Him. What’s more, they even attributed to Satan the miracles Christ performed by the power of the God’s Spirit. This blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was unforgivable because despite the clearest possible revelation of God, they still weren’t willing to accept Jesus as the Messiah. Their unrepentance prevented them from receiving salvation.

Since people living today do not have the undeniable physical presence of Jesus Christ in the world, the Pharisees’ unforgivable sin doesn’t apply to us. However, it is possible for people to end up in an unpardonable state. This happens when a person repeatedly rejects the Holy Spirit’s conviction of sin and the clear revelation of Jesus Christ as the Savior. With each rejection, the heart becomes harder—eventually the calcification prevents it from sensing any impression God’s Spirit tries to make.

Source: https://www.intouch.org/read/magazine/daily-devotions/what-is-the-unpardonable-sin

 

[Sai]

BULL.

Excuses. Excuses.

So you agree that the unpardonable sin is heart-felt pure rejection of the holy spirit? Doesn't that mean you have to agree that a CHOICE had to be made by the person who denied the Holy spirit?

You are believing in lies!! PLENTY of people commit the unpardonable sin today by REJECTING CONSISTENTLY THE HOLY SPIRIT'S CALL. After they have committed, God gives them up to their desires and sinfulness! Likely a lot of demons inhabit these people who have rejected God's grace, very sad to think about.

All manner of sin is forgivable, including the u s. Are you claiming that Jesus’ blood does not forgive any and all sin? That’s blasphemy.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, they rejected JESUS as the miracle worker. The main idea here is rejection. Read this passage I just found from a reliable source:

Arminians are not a reliable source.
Any one sin not covered by the blood of Jesus will result in judgment.

 

[Sai]

Israel committed a sin once before in her history that too, was a national sin and not a singular individual sin where that “generation” was judged. Anyone care to guess when that happened?

 

[Dave G]

PLENTY of people commit the unpardonable sin today by REJECTING CONSISTENTLY THE HOLY SPIRIT'S CALL.

I hadn't really intended to make any further replies, @Miss E ,
But a couple of questions if I may:

According to these passages, who are "the called" and what is "calling"?




1 " and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? " ( Romans 9:23-24 ).

2 " I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called," ( Ephesians 4:1 ).

3 " [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;" ( Ephesians 4:4 ).

4 " Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" ( 2 Peter 1:10 ).

5 " Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:
12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ." ( 2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 ).

6 " who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, " ( 2 Timothy 1:9 ).

7 " whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:14 ).

8 " but as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;" ( 1 Peter 1:15 ).

9 " For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]: ( 1 Corinthians 1:26 ).

10 " These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful." ( Revelation 17:14 ).

11 " And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." ( Hebrews 9:15 ).

12 " And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:28-30 ).

 

[atpollard]

All manner of sin is forgivable, including the u s. Are you claiming that Jesus’ blood does not forgive any and all sin? That’s blasphemy.

Does Jesus blood forgive the sin of rejecting Him?
If so, then EVERYONE is saved, are they not?
If not, then Jesus blood does not forgive ALL SIN, does it?

So which is it?

 

[atpollard]

All manner of sin is forgivable, including the u s.

Isn’t it an oxymoron to state that the “unforgivable sin” is “forgivable”? If a sin is forgivable, then it is a forgivable sin, not an unforgivable sin. That’s sort of the point of the definition of “unforgivable”.

 

[AustinC]

Why would we boast about receiving God's grace? All glory goes to Him because HE did the saving! And I don't know if you're native English speaker, but the pronoun 'I' goes with the verb 'believed' so it means that NEWTON, had to BELIEVE, upon Jesus. Besides, history says he was a MILD Calvinist so whatever that means, he obviously didn't believe in your elect view.

If you choose, it is not grace, but your work of choosing.
If God does the saving, then God does the choosing.
Of course "I believed." I could not not believe because God gave me faith to believe.
Do you see how it is all God? There is no room made possible for you or I to boast.

 

[Van]

You are missing so much.

Such a generalization leaves little room for reality.

 

[Sai]

Does Jesus blood forgive the sin of rejecting Him?
If so, then EVERYONE is saved, are they not?
If not, then Jesus blood does not forgive ALL SIN, does it?

So which is it?

Everyone rejected God before they believed. Does that answer your question?

 

[Sai]

Isn’t it an oxymoron to state that the “unforgivable sin” is “forgivable”? If a sin is forgivable, then it is a forgivable sin, not an unforgivable sin. That’s sort of the point of the definition of “unforgivable”.

I’m here to help. As was the case at Kadesh Baranea and as is the case of the warnings in the book of Hebrews, and in Matthew 12, the punishment was physical death not spiritual loss of salvation. Please think deeply about that.

 

[Sai]

Matthew 12 records one of the three messianic miracles. These were taught by first century Pharisaic Judaism as special miracles only to be performed by the messiah when he came.

The first messianic miracle was the healing of a Jewish leper. The second messianic miracle was the healing of a man born blind. And the third messianic miracle was what took place in chapter 12 of the book of Matthew.

I will save you the trouble of researching the mishna and Targums and spell out for you what was taught to every Jew in the first century concerning the third messianic miracle, the casting out of a dumb demon.

According to the Pharisees they could perform an exorcism of a demonized victim by following a formula. They would first strike up a conversation with the individual and once they determined it was the demon and not the individual who was speaking, they would then find out the demon’s name and then cast out the unclean spirit. However, if the demon caused the person to be deaf and mute, only messiah when he comes can cast out such a demon. It is noteworthy that in the case of this man who was demonized and could not speak we are told he was brought to Jesus. This was the final test case for Jesus to be authenticated as the Jewish messiah. And when Jesus casts out the demon, the multitudes begin to ask the logical question; Isn’t he the messiah of Israel? The Son of David? But rather than answer the question themselves, they did what has been typical of Jewish people, they allowed the leaders to answer the question for them. By claiming Jesus was empowered by Satan, they explained away how he could do these messianic miracles that they had been taught since childhood only the true messiah would be able to do.

Jesus responded in telling the leaders who stood as representatives for the nation that they acted as power of attorney for “this wicked generation” and thereby committed a unpardonable act that would result in the rescinding of his offer of the literal one thousand year kingdom of Israel on earth. But just like the generation in the wilderness, most still were spiritually saved although physically they crossed the line of no return and would physically they were punished dying in the wilderness.

Jesus having been rejected by Israel pronounced doom upon “this wicked generation” he prophesies the destruction of the Temple and the scattering of the Jews. In Hosea 5:15 we are shown Jehovah speaking to the nation and he says I will return to my place until you confess your iniquity. The Hebrew is singular. The one singular offense committed by Israel that caused Jesus to return to heaven was the unpardonable sin of Matthew 12, the rejection of the messiahship of Jesus by Israel while he was present on the basis of demon possession. Paul participated in that rejection with nation but was later forgiven. Jesus ends the discussion saying that other past peoples will be able to condemn their generation because a greater prophet was present, God Himself yet they would not hear Him. Then the parable of thread demoniac who was swept and garnished but empty and has seven demons return making his state worse than before. The Jews had their own religious autonomy and judicial independence up and running before the consequences of this sin happened in A.D. 70. John the Baptist had done the sweeping and garnishing but by rejecting Jesus they were left empty.

 

[JonC]

I hadn't really intended to make any further replies

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

God orchestrates His perfect will, while allowing his creation to have free will. As the scpiture says:

"All things work together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to His purpose." That just means God knew beforehand we would choose Him! Yes we were called, even before we were in our mother's womb! But we still were allowed a choice in God's divine plan. It doesn't make sense to us, heck, doesn't even make much sense to me but this is what God has shown me from His word!

For God's ways are higher than our ways, as the heavens are higher than the earth.

And, we must not learn upon our own understanding, but in all our ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct our paths!

Bolding mine.

The prescient view is incorrect and illogical.

God is omniscient. He does know everything about us. What we will do and not do. So tell me, why would God allow those who will not be chosen to even be born? That doesn't seem fair to me. It's downright cruel.

Romans 9:19-20

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God?

You talk about a loving God, would you say that creating a human being destined for hell is a loving act? I believe in a God who is loving, but also has wrath. From Genesis to Revelation we see a merciful God, but we also see an angry God.

There are so many things we don't understand, yet we trust in the arms of our Savior.

Keep in mind, that unbelievers are watching and they want to see if our behavior is truly different from the rest of the world. We need to rise to the challenge, check our tongues and bring light to world.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

It was a reliable source from a Godly man who used scripture and just had a view different than yours. Yet here you are using an unreliable source that can be edited (and probably IS edited) by sinners and demonized people.

You should be trusting in the scriptures, not man. It's fine to look to other men (women) just be sure they are godly people. Have you read what the Bible says are the qualifications for elders. Charles Stanley does not meet the standards. We can and should forgive him, but the facts are the facts. His son Andy, is a person who has rejected the foundational beliefs of the church. He has even minimized the havoc that sexual sin creates. I do not think that either man is qualified to lead.

 

[Salty]

SIX HOUR WARNING

This thread will be closed no sooner that 630 am EDT / 330 am PST Wed, 24 Jun

 

[Miss E]

One last thing . If God is like a father to us then wouldn’t that mean He loves all his children unconditionally ? A father shouldn’t hold favoritism for one child over the other, so why would God? For the scripture says:

God shows no partiality. Romans 2:11

Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. (Acts 10:34-35)

Therefore God did not choose anyone based on how he felt but man had to make a choice to do good than evil and that was how God chose.