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Does God allow us the free will to choose Him?
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The multiple claims posted in this thread that we cannot seek God are unbiblical. Matthew 23:13 teaches that men (lost unregenerate people) were "entering" the kingdom, thus seeking God, yet had not been "enabled by irresistible grace" because they were prevented from going in. Full Stop.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
We hate the true God unless he chooses to give us a heart that loves him. Salvation is complete and of grace.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
No.
" Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." ( John 6:29 ).
" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:44 ).
" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ).
" Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:43-47 ).
" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).
"
Miss E
Active Member
He might have been talking to His disciples but He was referring to all men , As for your Greek word:
anyone
τις (tis)
Interrogative / Indefinite Pronoun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 5100: Any one, some one, a certain one or thing. An enclitic indefinite pronoun; some or any person or object.
Likewise, would you say that Jesus was talking to only His chosen people during His sermon on the mount?
Ask, Seek, Knock
7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good giftsto those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
The Narrow and Wide Gates
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Miss E
Active Member
Ya'll are pulling this imaginary 'chosen people' line out of thin air when the scripture explicitly refers to 'all men/women'. Why has your pride gotten in the way of what true scripture says? Yes God chose us before times, but He didn't make us choose Him. He already knows what choice we will make, but that doesn't mean He didn't allow us the choice to choose whether to follow Him or not.
Furthermore, can't you see that your view on us not having free will makes God out to be a totalitarian God making us choose what our destinies will be, by making us out to be no more than God's robot children who (pardon my analogy) barks when he says bark, other-wise we have no ability to bark on our own? (that is, to say bark = choose Jesus)
That isn't' disrespecting in any way God, because I am not the one holding to that view, I am describing what ya'll are saying. Ya'll are buttering up your words, making it seem like God is in total control, when yes, I don't deny that, but you're refusing to acknowledge your morally wrong idea that God would force people to choose His son or not.
Tell me, why was Jesus sent to die in our place if God already chose who He would save? Does that make Jesus' sacrifice void if indeed God had the ability all along to choose who would be saved and who would not?
Furthermore, can't you see that your view on us not having free will makes God out to be a totalitarian God making us choose what our destinies will be, by making us out to be no more than God's robot children who (pardon my analogy) barks when he says bark, other-wise we have no ability to bark on our own? (that is, to say bark = choose Jesus)
That isn't' disrespecting in any way God, because I am not the one holding to that view, I am describing what ya'll are saying. Ya'll are buttering up your words, making it seem like God is in total control, when yes, I don't deny that, but you're refusing to acknowledge your morally wrong idea that God would force people to choose His son or not.
Tell me, why was Jesus sent to die in our place if God already chose who He would save? Does that make Jesus' sacrifice void if indeed God had the ability all along to choose who would be saved and who would not?
Sai
Well-Known Member
Like the angels Adam was created in a state of unconfirmed holiness with the ability to make a choice contrary to his nature. The angels who sinned followed Satan and those that did not were confirmed in holiness and cannot sin. Adam, chose to disobey. Unlike Eve who was deceived by Satan, he knew exactly what he was doing.
Sai
Well-Known Member
“Yes God chose us before times, but He didn't make us choose Him. He already knows what choice we will make, but that doesn't mean He didn't allow us the choice to choose whether to follow Him or not.”
*The problem with this view (the Calmenian view) is that if God elected his elect based on the knowledge of them choosing to believe, that means that they merited his choice, it means election was based on works not grace.
“that God would force people to choose His son or not.”
*God does not force his elect to believe. Because human faith is required. What he did was provide divine enabling for us to make a choice contrary to our fallen nature to seek God in Christ. Therefore we did choose to believe but our faith is not reckoned as works.
“Tell me, why was Jesus sent to die in our place if God already chose who He would save? Does that make Jesus' sacrifice void if indeed God had the ability all along to choose who would be saved and who would not?”
*The answer is simple, God looked into humanity and decided to save some from it while choosing to pass over others.
Miss E
Active Member
WRONG Works in the Bible refer to the good works people do, thinking that they can do enough good things to out-weight the bad. (as the catholic's believe you need this in addition to faith). Being able to CHOOSE to follow a Holy God, that is, to put FAITH in Jesus as the one who died for your sins, is not a 'work'. You obviously don't know the definition of what a 'work' is when it is referred to in the Bible.
Enabling is the same thing as saying God forced our hand to choose option a over option b. Now you're saying we have a choice? But also saying that God forced us to choose what we chose? Nonsense. Try again.
That sounds like a dictator God to me. To not give His creation a free will choice to choose whether to trust in Jesus, making our love genuine and not fake or robotic as the view you are for BASICALLY boils down to.
Give scriptural support next time, as I did in other posts. Please and Thank you.
Sai
Well-Known Member
WRONG Works in the Bible refer to the good works people do, thinking that they can do enough good things to out-weight the bad. (as the catholic's believe you need this in addition to faith). Being able to CHOOSE to follow a Holy God, that is, to put FAITH in Jesus as the one who died for your sins, is not a 'work'. You obviously don't know the definition of what a 'work' is when it is referred to in the Bible.
Enabling is the same thing as saying God forced our hand to choose option a over option b. Now you're saying we have a choice? But also saying that God forced us to choose what we chose? Nonsense. Try again.
That sounds like a dictator God to me. To not give His creation a free will choice to choose whether to trust in Jesus, making our love genuine and not fake or robotic as the view you are for BASICALLY boils down to.
Give scriptural support next time, as I did in other posts. Please and Thank you.
I would change the term works to merit then per your first question. If God elected based on knowing those who would accept him over against those who would not accept him means that he chose his elect based upon merit. You deserved his election because he knew you would choose and the non elect did not deserve election as they had no merit.
Enabling “force our hand” what you just admit to is God owes us to save us because we chose him. By divine enabling God was able to provide salvation by grace alone plus nothing, even our choice is not looked on as a work, we have been totally saved by grace thru faith plus nothing.
To provide scripture is a bit tedious for me as I’m already totally convinced of my position here. Because this is a milk topic I haven’t spent time pondering and reflecting on the passages that led me to believe in 4 point Calvinism for many years now. However, if you decide to read up on the doctrine of election I would recommend authors who fully developed both sides of the equation and provide their arguments after doing so. The problem with the Calmenian teachers is they do not develop both sides, they merely site the positions and then meet in the middle claiming God chose based on the fore knowing of each person’s faith.
Do you understand what this verse is talking about?
Notice it is clearly stating that the atonement is limited. That limited group, the chosen people of God, will look for God's return.
The very verse you quote, rebukes your argument.
Miss E
Active Member
Yes, YOUR position. You won't even try to look for scripture, because there is none that biblically supports YOUR claim. The Bible is clear, we have free will. It is stated countless times in scripture but you all continue to ignore or interpret it to your liking where it is YOUR word, not God's that you are trying to get other's to believe.
I appreciate your reply. Your reference to Eve in the garden is certainly one of the first applications of free will. I believe the deception of Satan was pre-dated by his arrogance expressed by him (Lucifer) as the angel of light.
[Isa 14:13-15 KJV] 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Miss E
Active Member
That is the most ridiculous comparison I've ever read! To compare Satan's desire to be LIKE GOD and our free will choice to FOLLOW/LOVE GOD, is like comparing the sun to the moon!!
Try again.
Thanks for reading and replying to my post. I your opinion, where did free will originate?
It seems you have, among other misunderstandings, a misunderstanding of the three types of death and their impact on the three types of life. Foremost, spiritually dead souls cannot change their status by declaring "I will". As in "I will myself to be a child of God", or "Because I have decided to have Jesus as my savior, I declare myself to be a member of the family of God and therefore have the right to call God Abba! Father!". That is the highest form of arrogance conceivable.
But WAIT!! Look at what scripture says:
[Gal 4:6 ESV] 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
GOD initiated the relationship and sent His Spirit into our hearts. You are claiming to be able to demand the Spirit of God into your heart!
What is spiritual death? | GotQuestions.org
Death is separation. A physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death, which is of greater significance, is the separation of the soul from God.
[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
You are also claiming the ability to "quicken" yourself. I conclude that you are able to be like God, surpassing Lucifier's expressed intentions.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
None of this is in the Bible, except Eve claims she was deceived. Adam blamed God and Eve. But those were excuses. Excuses are not reality. They are made up stories to cover up the truth. Eve was not any more decieved than bad theology decieves all in this thread. Eve had to know the truth, because she claimed she was decieved. When did Eve know the truth?
Adam was God on earth with a free will. Not The actual God. In God's image. Why would God not give His image free will. God handicapped Himself? Angels are not in God's image. They have no will at all. Satan does not have a will. Satan has billions of thoughts, and cannot act on a single one. We are just simple free will beings lacking authority. When we do get authority, we do not have a single thought how to use it. Some use it selfishly. Some let God work through them. If the church used God’s authority like God demands, this world would be completely different. Instead we listen to Satan's thoughts.
Satan has lied. The whole world could be saved, and could be perfect. We have been taught sin is too strong. REALLY!! sin is the result of actions. Yep, the result of the lack of faith and trust in God, results in sin, yet we blame the result, not ourselves.
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