Does God allow us the free will to choose Him?

[Miss E]

Thanks for reading and replying to my post. I your opinion, where did free will originate?

It seems you have, among other misunderstandings, a misunderstanding of the three types of death and their impact on the three types of life. Foremost, spiritually dead souls cannot change their status by declaring "I will". As in "I will myself to be a child of God", or "Because I have decided to have Jesus as my savior, I declare myself to be a member of the family of God and therefore have the right to call God Abba! Father!". That is the highest form of arrogance conceivable.

But WAIT!! Look at what scripture says:
[Gal 4:6 ESV] 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

GOD initiated the relationship and sent His Spirit into our hearts. You are claiming to be able to demand the Spirit of God into your heart!

What is spiritual death? | GotQuestions.org
Death is separation. A physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death, which is of greater significance, is the separation of the soul from God.

[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

You are also claiming the ability to "quicken" yourself. I conclude that you are able to be like God, surpassing Lucifier's expressed intentions.

Nope. Not what I said. God gives us life, once we choose to accept His gift. He has all the power, all the glory, all the honor. Not us. We simply have to be recipients of his grace and mercy.

Never said we were like God, you're putting words into my mouth.

 

[canadyjd]

I appreciate your reply. Your reference to Eve in the garden is certainly one of the first applications of free will. I believe the deception of Satan was pre-dated by his arrogance expressed by him (Lucifer) as the angel of light.

[Isa 14:13-15 KJV] 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Good point, satan was a liar and murderer from the beginning, certainly a liar and deceiver prior to creation of mankind.

I notice his lie to himself (to be like God) was repeated to Eve.

Thanks

peace to you

 

[Miss E]

Ya'll are very misguided.

Where Satan says I WILL be like God, I WILL be exalted like God, I WILL have a kingdom of my own, etc. etc.

Believers, who choose to Trust God are saying:

We WILL WORSHIP God
We WILL LOVE God
We WILL LIVE HOLY LIVES LIKE God
We WILL GIVE EVERYTHING to God

How is that making ourselves out to be like God? You say choosing to Love God makes one LIKE God in that we choose to receive His free gift of salvation which was offered to ALL who BELIEVE ON JESUS' NAME?


2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-17)

Some thoughts from others:

This divine choosing does not rule out human accountability. The gospel summons sinners to believe on Christ, which Paul's readers did (1 Thessalonians 1:4–6). However, the Holy Spirit fills a significant role in salvation by setting sinners apart for salvation. In response to the work of the Holy Spirit, the Thessalonians had put their trust in the truth, the message of salvation that Paul and his fellow missionaries had preached in Thessalonica. Salvation is entirely by grace, but no one is saved unless he accepts it by faith as a gift from God. Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8–9: "for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." And in Romans 6:23 Paul declared that eternal life is the gift of God "in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Source: What does 2 Thessalonians 2:13 mean?

The clear teaching of Scripture is that God chose each one for Salvation based on the choices He knew we would one day make - in respect of His offer of salvation, which by grace through faith in Christ.

It is not God's will that any should perish but that all should come to faith in Him, but in His omniscience God knew the choice we would make before we were even conceived in our mother's womb.. and how we thank God that He chose us from before the foundation of the world, based on that free-will choice.

Thank God that there is nothing in Scripture that teaches that he indiscriminately chooses to send some to hell, as some people like to teach.. for God loves His creation and it is His desire for all men to be saved.. Nor does the Bible teach that everyone will be saved, whether or not they trust in Christ.. as others like to suggest, for this would render the cross irrelevant! No! God bases his “choosing' on the free-will choices that each individual will make in respect of God's individual offer of salvation to them - that whoever believes on the name of the only begotten Son of God will not perish but have everlasting life.

But from the beginning of the world God knew the salvation choices each of us would make. And from the moment that we accepted Christ as Saviour, God's foreknowledge became a reality in our life - and from that moment on.. as from the foundation of the world.. we were part of the 'chosen,' in Christ.

And because we are His children and chosen by God we are members of His family and will be part of that great body of believers who will hear the trumpet sound and be raised incorruptible - as the first-fruit of the harvest of souls that have a spiritual inheritance, which is kept for us in heaven.

Thank God that He loved us so much that He sent Jesus to be our Redeemer and thank God that He has chosen us for salvation simply because we trusted in Christ's finished work on our behalf. Let us never forget to thank Him for His goodness and grace towards us.. for we read that: he who believes on Him is not condemned: but he who does not believe on Christ is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

How we praise God that the Holy Spirit searched us out when we were dead in our trespasses and sins and convicted us of: sin, of righteousness and of judgement. How we thank God that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us and sent His Holy Spirit into the world to convict us of our guilt before a righteous God and of the need to turn from our sins and accept His gracious offer of salvation.

How we praise and thank God and glorify His holy name.. that by grace through faith in Him we were positioned in Christ, set apart unto Him, and brought into His heavenly family, by the power of the Holy Spirit - because in His mercy and grace God chose us for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit; by trusting the Word of God, hearing the truth and believing it.

Source: What Does 2 Thessalonians 2:13 Mean?

 

[timtofly]

That verse is not talking about heaven it’s talking about the literal one thousand year Messianic Kingdom. If the nation of Israel had not rejected Jesus (Mt 12) then he would have established the kingdom in the first century.

It was not the Jews fault. The church could have set up a kingdom from the ground up, no matter how long it took.

But Satan offered a kingdom just like the Hebrews who wanted a kingdom before it was time. In fact the church caved in faster than the Hebrews.

 

[timtofly]

Good point, satan was a liar and murderer from the beginning, certainly a liar and deceiver prior to creation of mankind.

I notice his lie to himself (to be like God) was repeated to Eve.

Thanks

peace to you

Satan had 1000 years of thinking, just waiting to mess up humankind. It did take 30 years. From the beginning is about 1000 years off. The Lord's Day, the day God rested from creation before creating the Garden of Eden, was an actual 1000 years of perfection. Yet to God, it was only a day.

Adding that Satan was a liar and deciever before the 6th day is not in the Bible. That is just an interpretation without all the facts. All was still perfect at the beginning of the 7th day. Adam did not disobey on the 7th or 8th day. The Garden of Eden had not been created yet. The Garden was created 1000 years later, when God started to create again.

The Sabbath was a Lord's Day. That means it was not 24 literal hours. It just means some time in the future would be the 8th day of God creating again. God started creating after taking one created on the 6th day, and calling this one person Adam. It happened on earth 1000 years after the 6th day.

 

[Sai]

Yes, YOUR position. You won't even try to look for scripture, because there is none that biblically supports YOUR claim. The Bible is clear, we have free will. It is stated countless times in scripture but you all continue to ignore or interpret it to your liking where it is YOUR word, not God's that you are trying to get other's to believe.

You obviously are not convinced of your position. That’s fine it’s a milk doctrine. Move onto the meat of the word and leave off on this. The doctrine of election presents an antinomy. Just like the trinity is an antinomy we have to believe scripture and not try to make it make sense to us. Do infants die because of sin? Yes they do. They had no free will to choose God as they were born dead to him. Does that make sense? Does that make God guilty of iniquity? No and no. But we are created beings and from our vantage point we cannot know what is good as God knows good nor do we understand fairness as God understands it. We are completely lost and already condemned and headed for hell at conception.

 

[Sai]

Sorry Sir, I do not share your understanding of Matthew 23:13. The kingdom of heaven is in view

Heaven is a temporal abode for believers. Man’s final abode will be here, on earth.

 

[Van]

Heaven is a temporal abode for believers. Man’s final abode will be here, on earth.

I am sorry Sir, but your views run contrary to mine. For example the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God refers to the abode of God, whether in us as indwelt, or in the spiritual realm, or on the new earth.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Nope. Not what I said. God gives us life, once we choose to accept His gift. He has all the power, all the glory, all the honor. Not us. We simply have to be recipients of his grace and mercy.

Never said we were like God, you're putting words into my mouth.

ME, in discussing the idea of choice in response to hearing the Good News, I encountered an impasse due to differing definitions. The idea of willing apart from doing appears foreign to the Calvinistic mindset; agency seems inherent in their understanding of will. While it might raise other issues, Philippians 2:13 clearly splits them: “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Except for their melding of willing and doing and a literal metaphor of a spiritually dead body, they haven’t a case. But make no mistake, those two will not be dislodged through logical reasoning, mainly because they cannot imagine that the Almighty Sovereign God could sovereignly ordain a choice without sacrificing sovereignty or glory. To them, there is no distinction between selfishly recognizing one’s desperate need for an unattainable salvation and saving oneself by the finished work of Christ. Don’t sweat it.

 

[timtofly]

You obviously are not convinced of your position. That’s fine it’s a milk doctrine. Move onto the meat of the word and leave off on this. The doctrine of election presents an antinomy. Just like the trinity is an antinomy we have to believe scripture and not try to make it make sense to us. Do infants die because of sin? Yes they do. They had no free will to choose God as they were born dead to him. Does that make sense? Does that make God guilty of iniquity? No and no. But we are created beings and from our vantage point we cannot know what is good as God knows good nor do we understand fairness as God understands it. We are completely lost and already condemned and headed for hell at conception.

This is not biblical doctrine though. It is of Satan and leads to confusion. Probably best quote verses, before making blanket statements. Infants have no choice because they cannot reason, not because of free will. Babies make lot of free will choices. They cry and bend the will of those around it. One of the first thing a baby learns is what is will, and how it changes. They are not forced to ram their will into other human's will. They experiment and learn the environment around them. It is free will in action. Only old minds set in deep grooves have issues with free will. Some times they cannot even tell the difference in free will and their own will. The lines are too blurred.

 

[Sai]

I am sorry Sir, but your views run contrary to mine. For example the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God refers to the abode of God, whether in us as indwelt, or in the spiritual realm, or on the new earth.

The kingdom of heaven is multifaceted yes, but there is the literal kingdom of Israel under the messiah that was offered to the nation of Israel by Jesus.

 

[canadyjd]

Ya'll are very misguided.

Where Satan says I WILL be like God, I WILL be exalted like God, I WILL have a kingdom of my own, etc. etc.

Believers, who choose to Trust God are saying:

We WILL WORSHIP God
We WILL LOVE God
We WILL LIVE HOLY LIVES LIKE God
We WILL GIVE EVERYTHING to God

How is that making ourselves out to be like God? You say choosing to Love God makes one LIKE God in that we choose to receive His free gift of salvation which was offered to ALL who BELIEVE ON JESUS' NAME?


2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-17)

Some thoughts from others:

This divine choosing does not rule out human accountability. The gospel summons sinners to believe on Christ, which Paul's readers did (1 Thessalonians 1:4–6). However, the Holy Spirit fills a significant role in salvation by setting sinners apart for salvation. In response to the work of the Holy Spirit, the Thessalonians had put their trust in the truth, the message of salvation that Paul and his fellow missionaries had preached in Thessalonica. Salvation is entirely by grace, but no one is saved unless he accepts it by faith as a gift from God. Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8–9: "for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." And in Romans 6:23 Paul declared that eternal life is the gift of God "in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Source: What does 2 Thessalonians 2:13 mean?

The clear teaching of Scripture is that God chose each one for Salvation based on the choices He knew we would one day make - in respect of His offer of salvation, which by grace through faith in Christ.

It is not God's will that any should perish but that all should come to faith in Him, but in His omniscience God knew the choice we would make before we were even conceived in our mother's womb.. and how we thank God that He chose us from before the foundation of the world, based on that free-will choice.

Thank God that there is nothing in Scripture that teaches that he indiscriminately chooses to send some to hell, as some people like to teach.. for God loves His creation and it is His desire for all men to be saved.. Nor does the Bible teach that everyone will be saved, whether or not they trust in Christ.. as others like to suggest, for this would render the cross irrelevant! No! God bases his “choosing' on the free-will choices that each individual will make in respect of God's individual offer of salvation to them - that whoever believes on the name of the only begotten Son of God will not perish but have everlasting life.

But from the beginning of the world God knew the salvation choices each of us would make. And from the moment that we accepted Christ as Saviour, God's foreknowledge became a reality in our life - and from that moment on.. as from the foundation of the world.. we were part of the 'chosen,' in Christ.

And because we are His children and chosen by God we are members of His family and will be part of that great body of believers who will hear the trumpet sound and be raised incorruptible - as the first-fruit of the harvest of souls that have a spiritual inheritance, which is kept for us in heaven.

Thank God that He loved us so much that He sent Jesus to be our Redeemer and thank God that He has chosen us for salvation simply because we trusted in Christ's finished work on our behalf. Let us never forget to thank Him for His goodness and grace towards us.. for we read that: he who believes on Him is not condemned: but he who does not believe on Christ is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

How we praise God that the Holy Spirit searched us out when we were dead in our trespasses and sins and convicted us of: sin, of righteousness and of judgement. How we thank God that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us and sent His Holy Spirit into the world to convict us of our guilt before a righteous God and of the need to turn from our sins and accept His gracious offer of salvation.

How we praise and thank God and glorify His holy name.. that by grace through faith in Him we were positioned in Christ, set apart unto Him, and brought into His heavenly family, by the power of the Holy Spirit - because in His mercy and grace God chose us for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit; by trusting the Word of God, hearing the truth and believing it.

Source: What Does 2 Thessalonians 2:13 Mean?

Well, the “lie” of satan to Eve was that Eve would be “like God” in reference to knowing good and evil. It is reasonable to me that means they could choose the good and reject evil, just like God. That is an example of free will, which only God has.

Concerning the long post, if God looked through time and chose those who used their “free will” to accept Christ, then you have God responding to man in granting salvation. That is works.

If man responds to what God, Holy Spirit has done in drawing, convicting etc..., that is grace.

Any influence of God Holy Spirit in the salvation process undermines the concept of free will.

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

Ya'll are pulling this imaginary 'chosen people' line out of thin air when the scripture explicitly refers to 'all men/women'.

It's not imaginary.
God's choice of people to salvation is called, "election", and it very much is in the Bible:

Ephesians 1:4-5
Romans 8:28-30
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.
Psalms 65:4.
Titus 1:1.
Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
1 Peter 1:2
1 Peter 2:9.
2 Timothy 1:9.
Romans 9.
Matthew 24:13 <---- Israel.
John 17:2 <----- Jesus only gives eternal life to as many as the Father gives Him, i.e. salvation is limited to a group.
Romans 11:2.
Luke 18:7.
Mark 13:27.
Galatians 1:15.
1 Peter 5:13.
2 Timothy 2:10.

There's also context that needs to be established.
For example:

" But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." ( Hebrews 2:9 )

Who is the "every man" here?
All men?
One would think so if that is all of the information that we have...
But it isn't.

The chapter goes on to establish that the "every man" being spoken of in verse 9 is the "many sons" in verse 10.
"They who are sanctified" in verse 11.
"My brethren" in verse 12.
"The children which He has given me" in verse 13 ( Please see John 6:39, John 6:65, John 17:2 as cross references ).
"The children" in verse 14.
"His brethren" in verse 17.

 

[Dave G]

The Bible is clear, we have free will.

Not to choose to follow Christ, we do not.
The Bible is clear...

No man seeks God in and of ourselves:

" as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 and the way of peace have they not known:
18 there is no fear of God before their eyes. " ( Romans 3:10-18 ).

What's more, we as believers are not born again of our will, but of God's will ( John 1:13, James 1:18, John 6:29, Philippians 1:29 ).
Yes, I agree that from our perspective, we chose to believe.
But from God's perspective, He was the one who opened our hearts so that we would "hear" His words and believe them ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

All glory and praise goes to the Lord for His unspeakable gift of eternal life.

 

[Dave G]

God gives us life, once we choose to accept His gift.

Do you realize that if this were true, this makes salvation a reward for making the right choice?
But the Bible states that it is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ).

The Lord will not have any of His children to stand on their own merits.
We stand on His mercy and grace ( Romans 11:5-6, Titus 3:5-6 ) alone, with no works of righteousness to show for us having gained God's favor.

Belief is a work and it is a work of righteousness ( because it is a sin not to believe, John 16:9 ), but it is, ultimately, a work of God ( John 6:29 ), and it is given in the behalf of Christ to believe and to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).
Yes, we do the believing.
No, we don't believe to "get saved", we believe because we are saved and because God has performed a miracle of the new birth in us.


May God bless you greatly.

 

[AustinC]

Nope. Not what I said. God gives us life, once we choose to accept His gift. He has all the power, all the glory, all the honor. Not us. We simply have to be recipients of his grace and mercy.

Never said we were like God, you're putting words into my mouth.

Here's how I see your position.

God has a gift. He places that gift down on a sidewalk and he walks away. Some people may try to spruce up the gift and wrap it up in a way that would entice someone to stop and look at it while others may actually try to dirty up the gift. God stays away and lets humans do whatever they wish to the gift. People who pass by can look over the gift and size it up to see if they want to take it, but it's entirely up to them. Ultimately, some who take the chance and use their reasoning will take the gift and have eternal life. All those who walk away from the gift will die in their sins.

Here's how I see my position.

Humans are locked deep down in an inescapable prison with no light. They live in this inescapable prison their whole life. God, has a gift prepared specifically for them, with their name on it. God knows where they are located, in this prison, and he breaks into the prison, finds this specific person and gives that person the gift of redemption that is wrapped in glorious beauty and has that person's name written in gold. God gives this specific person, whom he has chosen, the gift prepared for them and then delivers them from their prison to take them upward into the light so they can forevermore live in the light.

Now, which of these positions lifts up the goodness and glory of God?

I once held your position. I can never go back to that position that demeans my savior and lifts my self up to prominence. I just can't do it. It grieves my soul to think of going back and it grieves my soul to see others still living in that position, which demeans their savior. MissE, I honestly and lovingly implore you to leave that position behind and know that God chose you out of the good and gracious love he has specifically for you.

 

[Iconoclast]

Practically every scripture in the Bible (both OT and NT) in regards to man's relation to God gives man a CHOICE. I could put a billion different passages here but the one that

Ya'll are pulling this imaginary 'chosen people' line out of thin air when the scripture explicitly refers to 'all men/women'. Why has your pride gotten in the way of what true scripture says? Yes God chose us before times, but He didn't make us choose Him. He already knows what choice we will make, but that doesn't mean He didn't allow us the choice to choose whether to follow Him or not.

Furthermore, can't you see that your view on us not having free will makes God out to be a totalitarian God making us choose what our destinies will be, by making us out to be no more than God's robot children who (pardon my analogy) barks when he says bark, other-wise we have no ability to bark on our own? (that is, to say bark = choose Jesus)

That isn't' disrespecting in any way God, because I am not the one holding to that view, I am describing what ya'll are saying. Ya'll are buttering up your words, making it seem like God is in total control, when yes, I don't deny that, but you're refusing to acknowledge your morally wrong idea that God would force people to choose His son or not.

Tell me, why was Jesus sent to die in our place if God already chose who He would save? Does that make Jesus' sacrifice void if indeed God had the ability all along to choose who would be saved and who would not?

It seems like you are confused on the fall of Adam,, and what the gospel is, and the work of the Spirit. Other than that it is okay.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The 'not of yourselves' is referring to works, no man can do enough good to outweigh the sin to get into heaven. We are saved by God's grace, not works. (this does not rule out a choice to have faith)

No one is saying that God doesn't do the saving. But a gift is presented (grace) and we have to either accept the gift or reject it. But without the choice we make to have FAITH in Jesus, God cannot provide his saving power upon our hearts.

Tell me this. If you believe people don't have a choice to receive or reject God; does that mean the Great Commission is invalid? For, why should we even bother telling people the Gospel if their choice was already made for them by God?

Why would Jesus command us to tell the Gospel to people, if indeed, people do not have the ability to choose for themselves if they will believe it or not?

Where does faith come from?

 

[Iconoclast]

You obviously are not convinced of your position. That’s fine it’s a milk doctrine. Move onto the meat of the word and leave off on this. The doctrine of election presents an antinomy. Just like the trinity is an antinomy we have to believe scripture and not try to make it make sense to us. Do infants die because of sin? Yes they do. They had no free will to choose God as they were born dead to him. Does that make sense? Does that make God guilty of iniquity? No and no. But we are created beings and from our vantage point we cannot know what is good as God knows good nor do we understand fairness as God understands it. We are completely lost and already condemned and headed for hell at conception.

Election makes perfect sense to the church.

 

[Miss E]

You obviously are not convinced of your position. That’s fine it’s a milk doctrine. Move onto the meat of the word and leave off on this. The doctrine of election presents an antinomy. Just like the trinity is an antinomy we have to believe scripture and not try to make it make sense to us. Do infants die because of sin? Yes they do. They had no free will to choose God as they were born dead to him. Does that make sense? Does that make God guilty of iniquity? No and no. But we are created beings and from our vantage point we cannot know what is good as God knows good nor do we understand fairness as God understands it. We are completely lost and already condemned and headed for hell at conception.

oh so you are one of the people that believe all babies go to hell since they didn’t have a chance to choose God? Age of accountability and the verse where Jesus says the kingdom of heaven is for the little ones just flies out the window to you hm?