convicted1
Guest
Exhaustive foreknowledge in that God knows all things, and isn't caught offguard or have "aha" moments.
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Does God Change His Mind? Another Calvinist Conundrum
- Thread starter DrJamesAch
- Start date
Exhaustive foreknowledge in that God knows all things, and isn't caught offguard or have "aha" moments.
Yes, suddenly Convicted1 has become Yeshua1.
I am amazed what this insidious doctrine does to people.
Here is the way I try to approach this, and I could be wrong, but I approach it thusly:
God, being outside time, sees things happen differently than we do. He see things "way down the road", whereas, we see them "at the now". God, knowing what Ninevah would do through His exhaustive foreknowledge, sent Jonah to tell them what they needed to do. He sent Jonah to fulfill that which He knew would happen. Boy, is my head ever spinning right now. Trying to grasp THE Eternal God is mind boggling!!
BTW, I pray that I haven't offended you. I have been kinda snippy, and I am soooooo sorry for that. Please forgive me, and never take anything I post personally.raying:
You should apologize Willis, Calvinism is turning you into an arrogant jerk.
Now you ask endless questions like Yeshua1. Instead of interacting, you spew out Calvinist cliches as answers.
You need to lay off the Calvinist Kool-Aid, it is not doing you good.
convicted1
Guest
Arrogant jerk? Really? I admit I am still learning. No arrogance in that.
convicted1
Guest
I have been taught only one system my whole life. After years of studying that one system, I have heard things that caused me to ponder. I am putting my beliefs to the test and pitting them against scripture to see if they hold up. I see things that make me think I was wrong, and other things, not. I am trying to look at the Word through a different lense. What's irrational about that?
It is fine to look at different views Willis, we should all seek the truth.
But that is not what I see here, your actual personality seems to be changing. Now you are making snide little remarks exactly like most of the Calvinists do. Pretty soon you will be implying anyone who does not believe in Calvinism is lost the way Icon does in practically every post of his. You are already responding like Yeshua1 by asking endless questions instead of answering the one that was put to you.
I can think of another poster here that was the nicest person in the world until they became a Calvinist, and now they are nothing but a smarta$$.
convicted1
Guest
I am asking questions to get answers. I haven't meant to come off snide, but when I was solely on your side, I debated the other side the same exact way. I see your anger being directed at me the same way you did others. We are all guilty of treating the other side of the debate with the wrong attitude. Sorry if any one got offended. I knew full well they would be detractors as I did this, and was braced for the onslaught. But I am not in either camp. That's why I am praying and studying to figure this thing out. Everyone needs to be patient.
No one is condemned with hearing only one side. I had the Calvinists condemned w/o truly knowing their beliefs. I am now looking at it through their lense to make a judgement. That's considered discernment and not arrogance.
This is an excellent post. Not surprisingly, it has been totally ignored.
I was NEVER that nice Willis. I don't play games with Calvinists because I consider them the enemy of truth and what the scriptures are really saying. My personality has always been coarse.
But you USED to be nice. That is who you are Willis, you are not a fighter like me. Your personality is changing since you have embraced Calvinism, and not in a good way.
I am amazed someone that once believed Jesus died for all men can now question that, that is a fundamental change in your viewpoint.
I am amazed that you can believe Jesus would PASS BY men and let them go to hell. Isn't Jesus the GOOD SAMARITAN in scripture??
Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
Jesus is the good Samaritan Willis. A Samaritan was a "mixed" breed, they were partly Jew, and partly Gentile. Likewise, Jesus is both God and man.
Notice that the priest and Levite PASSED BY this man who was half dead. But when the Samaritan came upon this man, he had COMPASSION on him. He stopped and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine (Holy Spirit). He then left him with an inkeeper (Holy Spirit) who was to keep him until he returned.
And NOW you believe God PASSES BY men? I am amazed at you Willis.
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Immutability does nothing to address whether God changes His mind. Two different things entirely.
Interesting how it is you calling everyone names.Willis begins studying these things and is open about it,and you go into a psychotic frenzy to attempt to talk him out of it.
You by your own mouth close yourself off to truth.Others who read and study go on and find it.You trying to find main doctrinal truth by giving false allegorical interpretations to parables is a formula for disaster.
Willis is Willis and that will not change.If anything it will take quite awhile now for him as he re-reads in scripture all the places Gods love is expressed in His sovereign mercy and things will grow clearer.
Notice....no cal is trying to..."Talk him in to anything" as you and others try and discourage him and hold back what is taking place.
What the cals here know is that the Spirit opens the word to the sheep...verse by verse. No matter where Willis lines up theologically you Winman cannot accept that God opens up scripture because he is going to use TRUTH to sanctify. When you set yourself up to resist and call names , and stick your jaw out , how to you expect to be led of the Spirit when you wake up everyday 24/7 ready to attack.
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
You declare truth to be the enemy then you are amazed when you cannot find it......
here for you;
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
quantumfaith
Active Member
To this point in the thread....your statement here ICON is absolutely false. Nothing of the sort has been stated (at least to the point of your comment). Either you are completely ignorant or you purposely creating your own scenario.
Foreknowledge does not necessarily mean foreordination.
A convenient way to interpret it. How frequently have I seen Calvinists employ:
Isaiah 55:9 ESV
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
to explain away the mysterious aspects of God's nature, and yet here this verse is being avoided to show how God is in fact lowering himself in order for us humans to understand Him.
Inspector Javert
Active Member
Yes. God changes his mind. The Scriptures state that clearly and repeatedly. We have no right to place our pre-suppositions about forknowledge, determinism, Immutability, Sovereignty ad nauseum in order to explain away the myriads of clear passages which state that that is precisely what He does.
We must accept it as a truth, because the Scriptures repeat it in no uncertain terms. To believe otherwise is to force passages which clearly state (not imply) but STATE and that quite directly, that God changes his mind at times and about certain things.
He isn't lying to us, and "pretending" that he's a human in order to "get down on our level" nor is he speaking "anthropomorphically". He's changing his mind.
Whether we like it or not, we must adjust our Theology to HIS STATEMENTS.
To maintain that God does NOT change his mind will be to force HIS statements to conform to OUR Theology. There is no more disrespectful thing I can think of, nor more arrogant way to treat a Sovereign God. We can't call him a liar, we will answer for that.
We must accept it as a truth, because the Scriptures repeat it in no uncertain terms. To believe otherwise is to force passages which clearly state (not imply) but STATE and that quite directly, that God changes his mind at times and about certain things.
He isn't lying to us, and "pretending" that he's a human in order to "get down on our level" nor is he speaking "anthropomorphically". He's changing his mind.
Whether we like it or not, we must adjust our Theology to HIS STATEMENTS.
To maintain that God does NOT change his mind will be to force HIS statements to conform to OUR Theology. There is no more disrespectful thing I can think of, nor more arrogant way to treat a Sovereign God. We can't call him a liar, we will answer for that.
Inspector Javert
Active Member
:wavey::wavey:Correct. No one will support these lame statements Icon is making. No one has suggested these heretical ideas he's mentioned, nor will anyone support them.
As seen quite clearly here:
Isaiah 38:1-3, 5 ESV
In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him, and said to him, "Thus says the Lord : Set your house in order, for you shall die, you shall not recover."
Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord , and said, "Please, O Lord , remember how I have walked before you in faithfulness and with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.
"Go and say to Hezekiah, Thus says the Lord , the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. Behold, I will add fifteen years to your life.
What ICON has done here is NO different than what Dr. Ach does in every thread. He takes his opponents belief to what HE considers to be its logical end...thus, open theism in the case of the Arminian leaning IFB. Is what ICON posted really worse than the good doctor claiming Calvinists don't believe the lost need to repent?
quantumfaith
Active Member
Hey, I'm trying to talk you out of believing Calvinism, it is false doctrine!
I knew enough about the scriptures when I was 10 years old not to fall for this garbage.
God's love is expressed by cursing all men to be born sinners, and then passing them by and allowing them to perish for being the very thing he cursed them to be? You call that love?
Good, I hope you will leave him alone.
It is because God has opened up the scriptures to me that I know Calvinism is false doctrine. That is why I fight against it.
If Calvinism is true, then all of these scriptures are false, at least for those whom God passes over. If Calvinism is true, then those passed over cannot possibly believe, and so shall never receive anything from the Lord. God could make them able to believe in your system, but he doesn't want to do so.
If Calvinism is true, then men whom God has passed over do not have the ability to be swift to hear, and they are not able to receive with meekness the engrafted word, and it cannot save their souls. Oh, God could make them so they are swift to hear and receive his word, but God doesn't want to, he wants to pass them over.
You better hope you are not one of those he has decided to pass over. You know, you can't know until the day you die, so you better keep working. :wavey:
DrJamesAch
New Member
As seen quite clearly here:
Jonah 3:
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.