When an why would God ever need to know something brand new to Him, as to Him everything already seen and known to have already happened?
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Does God Change His Mind?
- Thread starter Rye
- Start date
Rye said:
Please point me to a verse that indicates God desires all people to be saved, yet it depends on them to voluntarily hop on the train to salvation.
Van said :
John 3:16
Rye said:
Yes, a person will remain lost unless unless they believe in Him.
My position is crystal clear.
But what if you left out of your response that God compels the lost to believe? So the lost hop on according to John 3:16, but they do not hop on because they are compelled.
Here is the Calvinist rewrite of John 3:16, God loved the world in this way, He gave His unique Son so that everyone God compels to believe in Him, will not perish, but have everlasting life. Note that "believes" in not in the passive voice, but active, so the "compels to believe" is untenable grammatically.
I could go on to verse after verse that Calvinism must rewrite in order to pour their false doctrine into the text. I have already shown how Acts 13:48 was altered by misrepresenting the meaning of Tasso which is an arrangement or appointment by mutual consent rather than unilateral placement.
Please point me to a verse that indicates God desires all people to be saved, yet it depends on them to voluntarily hop on the train to salvation.
Van said :
John 3:16
Rye said:
Yes, a person will remain lost unless unless they believe in Him.
My position is crystal clear.
But what if you left out of your response that God compels the lost to believe? So the lost hop on according to John 3:16, but they do not hop on because they are compelled.
Here is the Calvinist rewrite of John 3:16, God loved the world in this way, He gave His unique Son so that everyone God compels to believe in Him, will not perish, but have everlasting life. Note that "believes" in not in the passive voice, but active, so the "compels to believe" is untenable grammatically.
I could go on to verse after verse that Calvinism must rewrite in order to pour their false doctrine into the text. I have already shown how Acts 13:48 was altered by misrepresenting the meaning of Tasso which is an arrangement or appointment by mutual consent rather than unilateral placement.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
As I have posted over and over again, the Bible clearly tells us that God is a sentient being. No amount of silly philosophy will ever change what the Bible says.
Rye
Active Member
For God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (Young’s Literal Translation)
“Everyone who is believing in Him” - does this imply a universal invitation to everyone individually? Or does it describe a specific group of people that will do just that?
Because later in John, Jesus makes it clear who He is talking about - His sheep.
John 10:27-28 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Some might say that any person without exception has the ability to respond to the Gospel and become His sheep. I would argue, for one, that’s not exegeting the text properly, and two, I would ask the question, if God knows who will become His sheep from the beginning to the end, that means the number of His sheep is fixed from eternity, correct?
Most people today, because of their western way of thinking, when they read John 3:16 they get this idea in their mind that God loved the world so much that whosoever (an invitation to all of mankind) has the ability to believe in Him.
If God really did love the world so much, He would have everybody saved regardless if they believe or not. Unless, of course, He doesn’t really love the world that much at all and would allow many to be damned.
No, what God is doing is demonstrating His love to the world, to the elect and the non-elect alike.
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A Being who alone has divine attributes and nature, and one of those attributes would be all knowing
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Who are you to tell God that He has to know everything when the Bible explicitly teaches that God has the ability to learn, that He has learned, and that He has at times changed His mind upon learning what He hitherto did not know. Even cockroaches have the ability to learn. What do you believe God is—a virus?
Benjamin Keach
New Member
No, God does not change his mind. The Scriptures teach that God is impassible that is he is not subject to change as James says (not as a shifting shadow).
Read Thomas Monck's A Cure for the Cankering Error.
A Cure for the Cankering Error: Thomas Monck
Read Thomas Monck's A Cure for the Cankering Error.
A Cure for the Cankering Error: Thomas Monck
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
The Scriptures expressly tell us that God is capable of feeling both grief and joy:
Psalm 78: 40. How often they rebelled against him in the wilderness
and grieved him in the desert!
Isaiah 63: 10. But they rebelled
and grieved his holy spirit;
therefore he became their enemy;
Mark 3:5. He looked around at them with anger; he was grieved at their hardness of heart and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored.
Nehemiah 8: 10. Then he said to them, “Go your way, eat the fat and drink sweet wine and send portions of them to those for whom nothing is prepared, for this day is holy to our Lord; and do not be grieved, for the joy of the Lord is your strength.”
John 15:11. I have said these things to you so that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be complete.
John 17:13. But now I am coming to you, and I speak these things in the world so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves.
Hebrews 12:2. looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the sake of the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God.
On the other hand, perhaps you meant “immutable” rather than “impassible.” If that is the case, your statement is irrelevant because changing ones mind does not change who one is. Furthermore, the Bible clearly, expressly, and unambiguously says in many places that “God changed his mind.”
God never has had to know anything that he did not already know, for if he actually had to decide based upon knowing something brand new, no longer qualified to be God
Did God know satan and adam would fall, when he asked Adam where h ewas, did God really lose sight of Adam after his Fall then?
Are you into Open Theism?
Rye
Active Member
John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Father draws a person to the Son. As a result of that drawing to the Son, said person will be raised up on the last day.
Sounds a lot like Irresistible Grace to me.
Thanks for answering the question and actually discussion the issue in dispute.
You (or Calvinism) claim "draw" is used literally here. But when folks see Jesus high and lifted up, they are attracted, or all people is claimed to actually mean all kinds of people.
Can someone put their faith in Christ without being exposed to the gospel of Christ? Of course not. So those drawn (attracted) by the lovingkindness of Christ dying for them is how most Christians understand the verse.
So if you would be so kind, answer this. What does "come to Me" meaning in John 6:44, come to put their faith in Christ, or come out of being spiritually located in Adam and changing their spiritual location to being "in Christ. Are you willing to clearly state which view you hold? Feel free to study the context.
Rye
Active Member
I would not use “drawn” and “attracted” interchangeably. A person may be attracted to miraculous events, such as Christ’s death, burial and resurrection. That doesn’t necessarily mean that they are going to come to the Son in repentance and faith. Some of the disciples who followed Jesus during His ministry witnessed many signs and wonders and later departed, demonstrating that they were not given to the Son by the Father. There might have been an attraction to what they saw but they were not being drawn to Him in the first place.
John 6:65-66 - And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
I am happy to state my position. Coming to Christ means to put their faith in Christ. When that happens, a they are no longer in Adam but are now in Christ. They are both part of one operation. It seems like you were making a distinction between the two, I’m not sure.
Did I say to use "drawn and attracted interchangeable? Nope The Greek word has a range of meanings, including the metaphorical attraction.
What did I say the attraction was based on? Christ dying for our sins. God's loviningkindness
No one said or suggested the attraction results in everyone is going to repent and believe. Only that no one comes to repentance and faith without being attracted by God's lovingkindness.
Yes, only those whose faith God credits as righteousness are given (transferred into) Christ.
No one said God draws a person with lovingkindness always before they seek God. Many OT saints sought God as a refuge. Others were looking for benefits such as eternal life.
John 6:65 NKJV
And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
Unless God allows lost people to believe, i.e. God has not chosen to harden their heart, they cannot put their trust in Christ. Thus, because of Christ's statement many of those acting like disciples, no longer followed His teachings. Did they think they could save themselves?
Yes, coming to Christ in some verses does mean to put their faith in Christ, but not always. In John 6:37, coming to Christ refers to being given (transferred to) Christ. It depends on the context.
Yes, Scripture makes a distinction between humans believing in Christ, and God choosing to transfer a person into Christ based on crediting the person's faith as righteousness. The whole process is captured by John with the phrase "believing into Christ!"
Rye
Active Member
It needs to be said, John 6:65 is a continuation of what Jesus began saying earlier.
John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
No matter which word you want to use, attract or draw, the inevitable result of that action will result in a person being raised up on the last day to eternal life.
That's the point Jesus was making, a lost person isn't able to come to Christ on their own. The Father has the grant them the ability to do so. The disciples who left demonstrated that they were not granted that ability in the first place. They remained as lost as they ever were.
I don't see a distinction made for either one. We simply have to disagree.
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Nope, the verse does not say everyone drawn will be raised up at the last day! It says those that come to Me will be raised up on the last day, and all of them will have been drawn by the Father before they came to Me.
Again, the verse does say nor suggest God is granting the ability to believe in Christ, it says God is not preventing belief by having hardened their heart!
You can claim not to see a difference between me putting my faith in Christ, and God crediting that faith or not, till the cows come home, you cannot remove Romans Chapter 4 from scripture.Rye said:
Rye
Active Member
OP is getting off track. Please see my new thread to address the issue of particular redemption.
The interesting thing about this chapter is verse 29. 'And also the Strength of Israel will not lie or relent. For He is not a man that He should relent.'
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
29. Moreover the Glory of Israel will not recant {Q Ms Gk: MT [deceive]} or change his mind; for he is not a mortal, that he should change his mind.” (NRSV)
Let us take a look at this verse in context,
22. And Samuel said,
“Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
as in obedience to the voice of the Lord?
Surely, to obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed than the fat of rams.
23. For rebellion is no less a sin than divination,
and stubbornness is like iniquity and idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has also rejected you from being king.”
24. Saul said to Samuel, “I have sinned; for I have transgressed the commandment of the Lord and your words, because I feared the people and obeyed their voice.
25. Now therefore, I pray, pardon my sin, and return with me, so that I may worship the Lord.”
26. Samuel said to Saul, “I will not return with you; for you have rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord has rejected you from being king over Israel.”
27. As Samuel turned to go away, Saul caught hold of the hem of his robe, and it tore.
28. And Samuel said to him, “The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you this very day, and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you.
29. Moreover the Glory of Israel will not recant {Q Ms Gk: MT [deceive]} or change his mind; for he is not a mortal, that he should change his mind.”
30. Then Saul {Heb [he]} said, “I have sinned; yet honor me now before the elders of my people and before Israel, and return with me, so that I may worship the Lord your God.”
31. So Samuel turned back after Saul; and Saul worshiped the Lord. (NRSV)
Samuel is telling Saul that because Saul has “rejected the word of the Lord,” God has rejected Saul from being king. God is adamant about this, and He will not change His mind about it. There is no suggestion, however, that God will not change His mind when circumstance make it appropriate for Him to do so—and, as we have seen, the Scriptures tell us repeatedly that God has changed His mind when the circumstances made it appropriate for Him to do so
I think there's something else there. The reason given as to why God will not lie or relent is that He is not a man (or a human being if you prefer)
Numbers 23:19 says the same thing; God does not change because He is not a man.
There is more to say about this, but it's going to take quite a long post, and I am off to prayer meeting presently. As and when and if I get time, I will post again.