Does God Choose Man or Does Man Choose God - Part 2

[Barry Johnson]

Do you hate God for being the Ruler who is has authority to choose?
Please tell God how you feel about his authority. We'll sit back and listen to your infantile ranting.

This is the Authority you have an issue with . The Authority of scripture.
1 cor 1
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Rom 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[Barry Johnson]

LOL, yet you cannot provide biblical support for your assertion. You make me chuckle, Barry.

Read again . I'm genuinely trying to wake u you up here .

. Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

3. Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

4. Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

5. Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

6. There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

7. Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)

8. Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)

9. Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

10. When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.

11. Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)

12. Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).

13. The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

14. The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)

15. What Calvinists call “the golden chain of redemption” contains no direct reference to the atonement. (Rom. 8:29-30)

16. Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)

17. Salvation is eternally secured by the sealing of the spirit, not “election.” (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22)

18. There is no sealing of the spirit before Pentecost or after the harpazo of the church. (Eph. 4:30; John 14:17; Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29)

19. There are two aspects to salvation: presence/effects of sin and lack of glorification. Nothing that eradicates sin glorifies the sinner. Both aspects must be resolved for salvation to occur. (Rom. 3:23; 5:8; 8:17-30)

20. Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)

21. Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)

22. Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)

23. ”Die(d) to save” is not a Bible phrase or concept. It is therefore senseless to pit it against “died to make men savable” since the premise is false to start with. This false dichotomy indicates confusion about what saves.

24. Sinners are born of God by the will of God after they receive Christ. (Jn. 1:12-13)

25. Monergism/Synergism is a false dichotomy invented in the 1890s. Calvinists are synergists based on their own definitions of these terms.

26. God is pleased to save those that believe, not cause belief in those he saves. (1 Cor. 1:21; Rom. 10:9-10)

27. Free gift unto justification of life to all men must be received. It’s not “universalism” unless irresistible grace supplants the biblical requirement to receive. (Rom. 5:11-18; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

28. “Foreknow” is being known by God in the sense of Gal. 4:9 after conversion and before glorification as if already glorified. It does not refer to any time prior to conversion. (Gal. 4:8-9; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Pet. 1:2)

29. Nobody was “in Christ” before the foundation of the world. Nobody was “in Christ” before they were placed in Christ during their lifetime. (Eph. 1:4; 2:12; Rom. 12:5; 6:3: 16:7; 1 Cor. 12:13, 27)

30. Free will or lack thereof (or lack of a type of it, such as libertarian) is not a proper interpretive pre-consideration. Scriptural authority is the one and only concern, irrespective of the implications to man’s will. (Pro. 30:5)

31. Unbelief condemns a person, not because it is an unforgiven sin, but because it is the exclusive point of access to the grace. (Rom. 5:2)

32. Arminianism is a branch of Calvinistic thinking, and it is wrong for all the same reasons that Calvinism is wrong.

33. Israel is who’s being hardened in Romans 9. The recipients of mercy are identified in Romans 11:32.

34. The Holy Spirit is the only member of the trinity who doesn’t draw in the New Testament. (Jn. 6:44; 12:32)

35. God’s sovereignty in salvation means that he executes it in accordance with Scripture and not in accordance with Hindu Fatalism.

 

[atpollard]

To Jews who were the sheep already learning from the Father in the old testament sense . it says they CAN come .

Yet Jesus told some of those Jews to stop grumbling ... because they couldn’t come.

Here it is again in different words from the same lips:

[Jhn 10:24-31 NASB] 24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yet Jesus told some of those Jews to stop grumbling ... because they couldn’t come.

Here it is again in different words from the same lips:

[Jhn 10:24-31 NASB] 24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.

The ones that failed to hear or to come ,hardened their own hearts . Gentiles in 2020 are not the sheep mentioned in the Gospel of John . He's talking to jews . it tells you who he is talking to .

 

[Barry Johnson]

The ones that failed to hear or to come ,hardened their own hearts . Gentiles in 2020 are not the sheep mentioned in the Gospel of John . He's talking to jews . it tells you who he is talking to .

Your missing the point . The sheep are the ones who were already following the Father .

 

[atpollard]

I love the God that chooses to save anyone who freely chooses of his own freewill to believe the Gospel .

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
- [2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB]

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yet Jesus told some of those Jews to stop grumbling ... because they couldn’t come.

Here it is again in different words from the same lips:

[Jhn 10:24-31 NASB] 24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.

They don't believe because they were not following the Father . They are not the sheep in the sense of already following the father . Those already following the Father are the sheep who hear the Son . Not because of hindu enlightenment but because they were learning of the Father . Following the Father .

 

[atpollard]

The ones that failed to hear or to come ,hardened their own hearts . Gentiles in 2020 are not the sheep mentioned in the Gospel of John . He's talking to jews . it tells you who he is talking to .

Then we better RIP the Gospel of John right out of our Bibles since it isn’t for people living in 2020. Is that really your position? Jesus is not talking to US in the gospels. Really????

 

[Barry Johnson]

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
- [2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB]

Why is Satan blinding those God has already blinded from birth?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Then we better RIP the Gospel of John right out of our Bibles since it isn’t for people living in 2020. Is that really your position? Jesus is not talking to US in the gospels. Really????

I meant in those verses . Do you see who he is talking to or not ? Do you seriously think Jesus is talking directly to you in every verse ?

 

[robycop3]

[Jhn 6:42-45 NASB] 42 They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?" 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

2 Peter 3:9

 

[robycop3]

Wow, a whole bunch of non-supported assertions from outside of scripture. Suit yourself.

I believe I know a little more about MY OWN EXPERIENCE than you, a complete stranger to me, knows.

 

[atpollard]

2 Peter 3:9

2 Peter 3:9 does not refute

• man’s (T)otal inability to choose God
• that salvation is not based human merit (U)
• that Jesus died for His sheep (L)
• that God draws whom He pleases without needing anyone’s permission (I)
• that Jesus will lose none of those that the Father has given Him, but will raise them all on the Last Day.

Your claim was that there was not one single verse supporting “Calvinism”, so I offered one verse. Rather than deal with the fact that there IS at least one verse that supports part of Calvinism, you offer “scripture pong” to prove that the Bible does not say what it says. You have not proven your claim with your verse and you have not refuted the existence of “a single verse” supporting Calvinism.

So your unfounded opinion stands refuted.
Calvinism may be wrong, but there are verses that support it.

 

[atpollard]

Why is Satan blinding those God has already blinded from birth?

The point is that those described in that verse as “blinded” cannot freely choose, can they? So your statement that EVERYONE can freely choose is contradicted by the Word of God.

That was the point.
Your question is irrelevant.

 

[atpollard]

I believe I know a little more about MY OWN EXPERIENCE than you, a complete stranger to me, knows.

Therein lies the reason that the debate will never be settled.

There are some people whose salvation experience is like that of Andrew ... they heard about Jesus, asked where he was staying and Jesus invited them to “Come and see.”

There are other people whose salvation experience is like that of Saul/Paul ... they wanted nothing to do with Jesus when God knocked them on their keister and chose them.

You will never convince Andrew that the only way that God saves is like Paul on the road to Damascus, and you will never convince Paul that Jesus just invited him to “Come and see” and following Jesus was all “Saul’s idea”.

Personally, I think that God calls “Andrews” to teach us that God is faithful and God calls “Sauls” to teach us that God is Sovereign.

 

[AustinC]

I love the God that chooses to save anyone who freely chooses of his own freewill to believe the Gospel .

LOL, then you love a different god, not found in the Bible.

 

[AustinC]

This is the Authority you have an issue with . The Authority of scripture.
1 cor 1
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Rom 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Those are all great verses. They just don't support your claim.
"the God that chooses to save anyone who freely chooses of his own freewill to believe"

 

[AustinC]

Read again . I'm genuinely trying to wake u you up here .

. Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

3. Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

4. Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

5. Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

6. There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

7. Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)

8. Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)

9. Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

10. When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.

11. Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)

12. Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).

13. The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

14. The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)

15. What Calvinists call “the golden chain of redemption” contains no direct reference to the atonement. (Rom. 8:29-30)

16. Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)

17. Salvation is eternally secured by the sealing of the spirit, not “election.” (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22)

18. There is no sealing of the spirit before Pentecost or after the harpazo of the church. (Eph. 4:30; John 14:17; Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29)

19. There are two aspects to salvation: presence/effects of sin and lack of glorification. Nothing that eradicates sin glorifies the sinner. Both aspects must be resolved for salvation to occur. (Rom. 3:23; 5:8; 8:17-30)

20. Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)

21. Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)

22. Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)

23. ”Die(d) to save” is not a Bible phrase or concept. It is therefore senseless to pit it against “died to make men savable” since the premise is false to start with. This false dichotomy indicates confusion about what saves.

24. Sinners are born of God by the will of God after they receive Christ. (Jn. 1:12-13)

25. Monergism/Synergism is a false dichotomy invented in the 1890s. Calvinists are synergists based on their own definitions of these terms.

26. God is pleased to save those that believe, not cause belief in those he saves. (1 Cor. 1:21; Rom. 10:9-10)

27. Free gift unto justification of life to all men must be received. It’s not “universalism” unless irresistible grace supplants the biblical requirement to receive. (Rom. 5:11-18; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

28. “Foreknow” is being known by God in the sense of Gal. 4:9 after conversion and before glorification as if already glorified. It does not refer to any time prior to conversion. (Gal. 4:8-9; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Pet. 1:2)

29. Nobody was “in Christ” before the foundation of the world. Nobody was “in Christ” before they were placed in Christ during their lifetime. (Eph. 1:4; 2:12; Rom. 12:5; 6:3: 16:7; 1 Cor. 12:13, 27)

30. Free will or lack thereof (or lack of a type of it, such as libertarian) is not a proper interpretive pre-consideration. Scriptural authority is the one and only concern, irrespective of the implications to man’s will. (Pro. 30:5)

31. Unbelief condemns a person, not because it is an unforgiven sin, but because it is the exclusive point of access to the grace. (Rom. 5:2)

32. Arminianism is a branch of Calvinistic thinking, and it is wrong for all the same reasons that Calvinism is wrong.

33. Israel is who’s being hardened in Romans 9. The recipients of mercy are identified in Romans 11:32.

34. The Holy Spirit is the only member of the trinity who doesn’t draw in the New Testament. (Jn. 6:44; 12:32)

35. God’s sovereignty in salvation means that he executes it in accordance with Scripture and not in accordance with Hindu Fatalism.

I do thank you for clearly outlining your false teaching and providing prooftext sentences to justify your false teaching. It is enlightening to read and see your denial of the Sovereign God revealed in scripture as you create your own image of God and his means of salvation. There seems to be little chance that you are a Baptist, but perhaps you hail from an extreme free-will outlier that I am unfamiliar with.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I do thank you for clearly outlining your false teaching and providing prooftext sentences to justify your false teaching. It is enlightening to read and see your denial of the Sovereign God revealed in scripture as you create your own image of God and his means of salvation. There seems to be little chance that you are a Baptist, but perhaps you hail from an extreme free-will outlier that I am unfamiliar with.

its my experience that Calvs and Armins don't usually see beyond their own hive . A calv usually only has pre package answers against Armins and vise versa .

 

[AustinC]

its my experience that Calvs and Armins don't usually see beyond their own hive . A calv usually only has pre package answers against Armins and vise versa .

It's my experience that your hive is not found in an historical church.
You have multiple people here who have read the Bible and in reading, found that others throughout all of Christianity understand the same thing. But, you reject it all. That places you in a very precarious place. That should bring up red flags for you, but you, so far, ignore them.