Aw, you're not including me in that, are you?
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Does God hate anyone?
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Aw, you're not including me in that, are you?
Aren't we all?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
- [Romans 3:10-12 NKJV] 10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all away; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."
- [Ephesians 2:1-3 NKJV] 1 And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Looks like that is not a problem and God is free to hate everyone since all have rejected Him first.
Since God is Love, is He not also One who has hate?
but He didn't.
Rev 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
But God hates not just the pride, lying tongue, fornication, idolatry, but He hates the prideful, liars, fornicators, and idolators.
Him who loved US, and washed US from OUR sins. This is not a universal love, but a love lavished upon His ppl.
Yes lavished upon His ppl but available to anyone.
It's only available to those He chose from before the creation of the world. It is those who are lavished with His love.
The objects(vessels) of mercy and the objects(vessels) of wrath are two entirely different groups od ppl. One does not go from one group to the other.
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.[Romans 9:21-24a]
The vessels of mercy and the vessels of wrath came from the same lump(Adam). So God took the vessels of mercy, those He chose from before the creation of the world[Ephesians 1:4], from all of Adam's posterity, gave them to His Son to redeem, atone their sins.
The vessels of wrath are rebellious Israel. The primary context of Romans but especially chs 9-11 is Israel. He was patient with them in their rebellion so that He could make known His riches of mercy in fulfilling Gen 12:3.
In Ephesians the qualification for being chosen is being "in Him" one is not chosen until their are "in Him" in other words the elect become the elect once they are saved. From the foundation of the world God chose those who are "in Him".
So salvation is open and available to all. Election is open and available to all who call upon His name.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
The primary context of Romans 9 concerns the children of the promise ( the children of God ). Please see Romans 9:6-29.
The primary context of Romans 10 is the children of God, the believers at Rome... as well as the children of Israel, who have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
The primary context of Romans 11 is God's people which He foreknew ( Romans 11:1-36 )
Again, believers are chosen "in Him" ( saved ) before the foundation of the world:
" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:3-4 )
" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 )
Chosen "in Him" to salvation first, believed second.
" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts 13:48 )
Ordained first, believed second.
" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 )
Sheep first, believed second.
" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. " ( John 6:64-65 )
Given by the Father to the Son first, came to Christ ( believed on Him ) second.
All who call upon Him out of truth ( Psalms 145:18 ) and out of a pure heart ( 2 Timothy 2:22 )
From man's perspective, salvation is open to all because no man knows who is saved until they believe.
" Whosoever will ".
From God's perspective, it is open to His elect.
"According to God's will".
The key?
God changes the heart and thereby the will.
But he doesn't do it for everyone, because not everyone is given to the Son by the Father.
Not all are drawn by the Father.
Not all are Christ's sheep.
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The vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy were in the same lump. The vessels of mercy were extracted from the same lump(Adam). That context could not be any clearer if Paul tried. Paul right before this wrote...So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.Romans 9:16-18] So the context is about God having mercy on some ppl(not all w/o exception) and leaving the others in their fallen state.
The qualification for being chosen is His electing love. There is nothing in us that even deserves the first glimpse from Him. God's election is based upon Himself, and not us.
Not hardly. Election of the sheep, the elect was from BEFORE the creation of the world, not during it.
Sigh, one is not born into this world "in Him" that would make one saved at birth.
The lump is Israel.
Just as He judicially hardened Pharaoh to show His power over all the gods of Egypt God also judicially hardened Israel's heart to show His mercy by grafting in the gentiles.
Scripture doesn't say that, I spoke directly to your use of scripture where the qualification was clearly being "in Him".
Scripture does not bear this out election is available to all. John 3:16
In some versions, it says the Christ is the lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.[Revelation 13:8] It also says our names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life from before the creation of the world.[Revelation 17:8] Election took place from before the creation of the world, but took place in time. It says the Lamb was slain from before the creation of the world, yet His crucifixion took place in time.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Precisely.
That's why they are called "elect."
The President is elected in November, he ( or she ) takes office in January.
The children of God are elected in eternity past, they take office when God calls them with the Gospel.
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One must be "In Him" to be elect according to scripture.
So God loves the whole world?... Then why did his Son Jesus say he prayed for those in the world and not of the world?... I pray for ALL mankind and since I have no idea of the expanse of the umbrella of Gods Eternal Salvation... He knows who are his sheep, his elect and his children and I don't... Do you?... Brother Glen
Well, we're at an impasse.
One question...
God so loved the world...John 3:16
“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.[John 17:6-9]
Now, if God loved the world, meaning everybody from all times, then why does the Christ not pray for the world in the above passage?
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